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If you going to use resources like the Sierra Club you might as well give up now. Unfortunately for you I've actually read this study they are referencing. Let me give you an example of one thing they consider a subsidy and it's substantial part of their total. Coal mines are required to contribute to the Black Lung benefit, the government basically taxes them a certain amount on each ton of coal. The benificiaries of this fund do not pay taxes on these benefits. This to them is subsidy, there is no tax on the tax.
Now if you want to look at some real numbers we can go to a reliable source like the EIA, here they are listed side by side for all sectors for the year 2007:
I knew you wouldn't like the source of my article but the facts don't change.
Remember, I grew up in Kentucky. My parents had a business that was dependent upon coal mining,...
I've visited Eastern Kentucky and I've met people suffering from Black Lung... I've seen the devastation left behind and the poverty that they lived in from mining coal.
I remember seeing the "World's Largest Strip Mining Shovel" in operation,... yada, yada, yada...
As a child we'd skip school and go swimming in "strip pits" left behind by your industry.
I like how he ended the article that I referenced.... "thanking coal for fuelling the "Industrial Revolution" in our country."
We are living in a new era today and we desparately need new, cleaner energy sources.
Last edited by World Citizen; 06-17-2011 at 11:59 AM..
If it hasn't already, solar will be cheaper than coal.
LOL, you're clueless. Even with the feds and state picking up half the tab it's a wash at best. That is why the feds and states will pay for half of it, no one would buy them otherwise.
I knew you wouldn't like the source of my post but the facts don't change.
What facts? It's the Sierra Club, have you even read what they citing. It would be like me quoting a coal industry source and saying it's unbiased. You bring me some facts from unbiased source like I quoted from the EIA. In case you don't know who the EIA is:
The U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) is the statistical and analytical agency within the U.S. Department of Energy. EIA collects, analyzes, and disseminates independent and impartial energy information to promote sound policymaking, efficient markets, and public understanding of energy and its interaction with the economy and the environment. EIA is the Nation's premier source of energy information and, by law, its data, analyses, and forecasts are independent of approval by any other officer or employee of the U.S. Government.
How about, when you file your taxes, the Govt sends you a discount gas card with varying percentages of discount depending on your income. If you don't earn enough to file tax return, do so anyway so you can get the discount card. If your income is above a certain level, no discount. Then raise the Fed taxes on gas, to make up the revenue difference to the station owners. I wonder how long it would take to get the wealthy behind the efforts to develop alternatives?
Lemme ask you a question, and I'm begging for an answer, not some snide comment:
If there was a market for alternative fuels/energies, don't you think that venture capitalists and the private sector would be trying to develop them? in other words, if something is worth making, you do not need the government to force people to make it.
I agree, ethanol was a mistake and does not have the intended effect. We need real alternatives, and must find them even if it requires "investment" that so many TPers have been told to detest.
What facts? It's the Sierra Club, have you even read what they citing. It would be like me quoting a coal industry source and saying it's unbiased. You bring me some facts from unbiased source like I quoted from the EIA. In case you don't know who the EIA is:
Basically they are CBO for energy.
And, you also probably want to discredit the New York Times...
Quote:
Prodded by intense lobbying from the coal industry, lawmakers from coal states are proposing that taxpayers guarantee billions of dollars in construction loans for coal-to-liquid production plants, guarantee minimum prices for the new fuel, and guarantee big government purchases for the next 25 years.
With both House and Senate Democrats hoping to pass “energy independence” bills by mid-July, coal supporters argue that coal-based fuels are more American than gasoline and potentially greener than ethanol.
“For so many, filthy coal is a dirty four-letter word,” said Representative Nick V. Rahall, Democrat of West Virginia and chairman of the House Natural Resources Committee. “These individuals, I tell you, have their heads buried in the sand.”
Environmental groups are adamantly opposed, warning that coal-based diesel fuels would at best do little to slow global warming and at worst would produce almost twice as much of the greenhouse gases tied to global warming as petroleum.
Coal companies are hardly alone in asking taxpayers to underwrite alternative fuels in the name of energy independence and reduced global warming. But the scale of proposed subsidies for coal could exceed those for any alternative fuel, including corn-based ethanol.
Among the proposed inducements winding through House and Senate committees: loan guarantees for six to 10 major coal-to-liquid plants, each likely to cost at least $3 billion; a tax credit of 51 cents for every gallon of coal-based fuel sold through 2020; automatic subsidies if oil prices drop below $40 a barrel; and permission for the Air Force to sign 25-year contracts for almost a billion gallons a year of coal-based jet fuel.
Quote:
But coal-to-liquid fuels produce almost twice the volume of greenhouse gases as ordinary diesel.
In addition to the carbon dioxide emitted while using the fuel, the production process creates almost a ton of carbon dioxide for every barrel of liquid fuel.
Ahhh coal to liquid fuels one my favorite topics. As I said I'm strongly opposed to any subsidies, the same would apply tothese. Having said that if you're going to subsidize anything coal would be most economical of any fuel and certainly the most realistic one since we have such an enormous supply. Here is the crucial number from your article:
Quote:
automatic subsidies if oil prices drop below $40 a barrel;
The reason for this is at $40 a barrel conventional oil is cheaper. Right now because of the high oil prices someone using the coal to liquid fuel process would be making a killing. The reason we have no private investment is because of the volatile oil market, if the market bottoms out like it did in 2007 anyone invested in this will be toast. It's a very risky venture.
Regradless of whether it is subsidized or not you can expect this tech to become reality in the future simply because it's than conventional oil nearly all the time. Long term the cost of oil will only go up. There is more reading here:
Two interesting points from that article, firstly diesel for coal is very clean.
Quote:
Benefit: Cleaner Energy. CTLs are less polluting than traditional fossil fuels. According to the University of Kentucky:
Compared to ultra-low sulfur diesel as a transportation fuel, liquefied coal emits 60 percent fewer hydrocarbons per gallon,
10 percent less nitrous oxides, and
55 percent less particulate matter.
Secondly it can be used in co gen facility making liquid fuels and generating power a t the same time which would certainly address the CO2 issues mentioned in the article.
Quote:
Benefit: Clean Electric Power. CTL production discharges excess steam that can be used to produce electricity. Electricity produced as a by-product of CTLs is incredibly clean. Such power generators emit 41 percent to 78 percent less regulated pollutants than similar-size traditional fossil fuel-fired electric plant
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