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Old 07-30-2011, 11:53 AM
 
8,418 posts, read 7,414,580 times
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Sovreignty IS an enumerated power delegated to the United States by the Constitution.

How exactly does the 10th Amendment magically remove an enumerated federal power?
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Old 07-30-2011, 12:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djmilf View Post
Sovreignty IS an enumerated power delegated to the United States by the Constitution.

How exactly does the 10th Amendment magically remove an enumerated federal power?
it doesnt, but the federal governments power is not absolute, it is regulated in many areas by the constitution.
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Old 07-30-2011, 12:19 PM
 
8,418 posts, read 7,414,580 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbohm View Post
you argument based on the supremacy clause is outweighed by the tenth amendment which states;
Quote:
Originally Posted by djmilf View Post
Sovreignty IS an enumerated power delegated to the United States by the Constitution.

How exactly does the 10th Amendment magically remove an enumerated federal power?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbohm View Post
it doesnt, but the federal governments power is not absolute, it is regulated in many areas by the constitution.
No, federal government's power isn't absolute but it is sovereign. The words absolute and sovereign do not mean the same thing.
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Old 07-30-2011, 12:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by rbohm View Post
you argument based on the supremacy clause is outweighed by the tenth amendment which states;
Tempered but but in no way shape or form, outweighed.
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Old 07-30-2011, 12:40 PM
 
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Hell why do we need the SCOTUS. Just come to city-data for your up to the minute interpretation of the Constitution.

Carry on all you constitutional scholars.
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Old 07-30-2011, 01:21 PM
 
46,961 posts, read 25,990,037 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBow View Post
It is really that simple and what the 13 sovereign states had in mind, when they decided to help each other in times of war and commerce.
What you're describing is a confederation, it was tried in the 1776-1789 interlude, and it plain didn't work. Which is why the US Constitution - as ovcatto correctly points out - was put in place to establish a federation instead.


Quote:
It worked to make the entire world, envy the USA. The policies set in motion at the turn of the last century, have set us on a path to reverse the grand experiment.
You have your history wrong. The US didn't enter the stage as a serious world power until events around the turn of the last century, notably the US contribution to WWI.
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Old 07-30-2011, 02:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
You have your history wrong. The US didn't enter the stage as a serious world power until events around the turn of the last century, notably the US contribution to WWI.
actually we became a world power after the spanish-american war when we won cuba and the phillipines from spain. even germany recognized that and had drawn up plans to invade the US in 1901 to force us to give up our claim on the phillipines and other locations in the pacific.
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Old 07-31-2011, 12:21 PM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
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WW-II and the aftermath, proved the world power we are.

We didn't just up and leave everything in ruins. We rebuilt it for them, better than it was and we still work hard so they can have some of our prosperity given to them today..
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Old 07-31-2011, 01:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbohm View Post
actually we became a world power after the spanish-american war when we won cuba and the phillipines from spain. even germany recognized that and had drawn up plans to invade the US in 1901 to force us to give up our claim on the phillipines and other locations in the pacific.
Debatable - Spain was kicked out of the club of "great powers" centuries earlier (War of Spanish Succession, all that) and had been fading ever since. While the US was definitely in rapid ascension as a great power, it was still a US offensive with short supply lines, versus a Spanish defensive action across an ocean.

And Germany didn't plan for an attack on the US because they thought it a hard target, quite the contrary.

Then again, the Kaiser had (mostly wildly unrealistic) schemes about all sorts of colonial adventures, and this one was exceptionally hare-brained. For one thing, it seems to have assumed that the Royal Navy would sit idly by and let the German Navy steam out through the North Sea.

Interesting debate, though. Anyone here read Massie's Dreadnought?
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Old 07-31-2011, 02:24 PM
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Now if anything would indicate the absolute supremacy of the national government over the states of the union, I don't know how the Supremacy Clause could any more clear.
The supremacy clause states that the federal government is supreme only in the areas where the constitution gives them the authority. The constitution created an extremely limited federal government which was intended to stay limited. But they left the option for the constitution to be amended if they people deemed it necessary.

The 10th amendment would make very clear this point, which clarifies the constitution by stating that all powers that weren't directly handed to the federal government by the constitution are reserved to the states or to the people. In fact the entire Bill of Rights is nothing but limitations on the federal government(and originally didn't apply to the states).

Moreover, if you actually read the history of this country from the Articles of Confederation up to the beginning of the Constitutional convention, and look at the actual issues that showed the weakness of the Articles of Confederation(like Shay's Rebellion). And then continue that by reading Madison's points in the Federalist papers, he was the father of the constitution(be careful if you read Hamilton's points, he was a discredited federalist retard who died in a duel because he was a pompous jerk). You would see what the purpose of the constitution was. Which was only to create a military and trade alliance. That is it, that is all, that is everything it was intended to be. All the powers delegated to the federal government in the constitution were only to maintain this military and trade alliance. They were the powers deemed absolutely necessary to settle trade disputes(between its entities and foreign nations) and provide for the means of defense(free travel, a commander-in-chief, etc).

When you look at any law on the federal books today, you can tell if it is proper or not if it either provides for the national defense, or if it is intended to regulate interstate trade(not intrastate trade). If it does neither of these things, then it falls outside of the original constitutional mandate, period.

Quote:
Federalism worked, it took a civil war to implement, but that was the end result. A nation with a strong national government, acting in supremacy to the states and involving itself in the national economy and stimulating growth and prosperity.
I would agree, having a strong federal government can be very effective in getting things done. Hamilton wanted a strong federal government to make this country a world power. If you look at the Romans for instance. The greatness of Rome wasn't under their Republic, it was actually over the next 200 years as an empire, under the "five good emperors", as the population of Rome swelled, and the coliseum was built. Eventually the empire collapsed, from corruption, dysfunction, mismanaged resources, and just greed and abuse. The capital was Rome, which was heavily subsidized by tax revenues placed on production elsewhere in the empire. It could not sustain such a large population by its own production, and as chaos ensued in the empire, tax revenues collapsed and so did Rome.
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