Put the elderly on ice?

[Mircea]

Originally Posted by marcopolo

President Obama's mother was taken out of hospice, terminal with cancer, for a hip replacement. They buried the woman and her new hip about two weeks later.

I am not a medical professional, but wouldn't painkillers have been a better solution? I don't think anyone can afford that kind of waste.

That is exactly the kind of nonsense I'm talking about. That happens more than you know. An elderly patient dying of lung cancer gets a liver transplant, ad nauseum.

Originally Posted by marcopolo

So if there is a line, and there are difficult decisions to make, who should make them?

You can regulate that.

You can spell it out in writing for all to see. If anyone has an issue, what would the US Supreme Court say? It would say you have the right of "due process" and can file an appeal.

That happens now anyway. People who are denied treatment under Medicare (or Medicaid) file an administrative appeal. It is reviewed and a decision is made.

That is the best you can do, and it does allow for consideration of individual or extraordinary circumstances (or provides for clarification when medical personnel are more than overly ambiguous in describing the patient's status and prognosis).

Originally Posted by marcopolo

And let's understand, Medicare as it is currently practiced cannot stand.

No kidding.

As best I can tell, you'll feel the pain 7 years from now when the Trust Fund collapses (Medicare says 2024, but their numbers are bogus for the same reason the OASI/OADI Trust Fund numbers are).

Originally Posted by marcopolo

Somebody will be making the choices. I am in favor of keeping those decisions at the individual level, instead of some government panel, insofar as we are able.

Can't do it.

One reason is attitude. You have a lot of people who falsely believe that health care is a god-given "right" and therefore they are entitled to everything. Their "right" to health care is about as groundless and baseless as my "right" to have yummy sea bass with clarified butter and filet Mignon with Bearnaise sauce once a week.

Another aspect of attitude is what separates Americans from the rest of the world. The rest of the world goes to the doctor to get well, but Americans go to the doctor to "feel good."

"Getting well" and "feeling good" are not the same thing. You cannot objectively measure "feeling good" because it is wholly subjective and in the "eye of the beholder."

Americans have this bizarre thing that they must feel 100% well 100% of the time, and that just is not possible. It would be a worthy goal and maybe in the Star Trekâ„¢ Universeâ„¢ you can do that, but I ain't seen no Galaxy Class star ships roaming around lately.

If everyone were like me, it wouldn't be a problem. I'm a disabled vet; I go to the VA damn near weekly if not twice a week; and I have a condition that is not being treated. Why? Because I'm not in pain. I probably would be in pain if I didn't have non-specific neuropathy caused by playing with nukes 400-450 hours a month for 3 1/2 years, but other than falling down a couple a times a week while walking or jogging, it's no big deal to me.

Now I could be a jerk and waste $200,000 on MRIs, CAT Scans, PET, x-rays, and all kinds of medication, even surgery, but what would be the point?

Maybe if I was an Attention Prostitute I'd get off on all the attention, and then of course, I'd have lots of things to complain to all of my friends about and hog the conservation by discussing my medical condition.

The only way you can possibly save Medicare (and Medicaid and even if you ever want a universal government-backed health plan) is to classify medical procedures and prescription drugs as either life-saving, life-threatening or elective.

Something that's life-saving, the cost to the patient ought to be minimal, provided the patient benefits. You don't give a kidney transplant to someone who has pancreatic cancer and will die anyway.

If people need prescription drugs to prevent a life-threatening issue, you can pay for that on a case-by-case basis. If a Phatassâ„¢ needs Lipitor because of high blood pressure, you tell them you'll buy their meds for a year; they got 12 months to drop 60 pounds; and at the end of the year, they start buying their own Lipitor 100% out-of-pocket if they want it.

One of two things will happen: They'll find the money to pay for it, or they'll get off of their Phatassâ„¢ and go walk 20 minutes a day and drop the weight to decrease their high blood pressure. Same thing for Type II Diabetes.

You have prescription medications like Semprex-D, Naphcon, Vasocon, Zaditor, Patanol, Optivar, Beconase, Flonase, Nasocort, Nasonex, Rhinocort, Veramyst. azmacort, Flovent, Pulmicort, Asmanex, Q-Var, Alvesco, Aerobid, Symbicort and Advair.

Those are allergy medications.

Will people die if they don't take them? No. Will they cause life-threatening problems? In the vast majority of instances, no.

So why pay for them? This is about "feeling good," not "getting well." Those are medications that people want, not what people need, and if they want them, they can pay 100% out-of-pocket.

And if they don't have the money, they'll just have to live life at 98% instead of 100%. Welcome to Earthâ„¢.

This business of paying for Viagra, and penis pumps and prescription drugs and medical procedures and even medical devices, because people want them, and not because they need them, has to end, and the sooner the better.

As a country, you cannot afford to spend $1 Million per person per life-time. You can't even afford to spend $500,000 per person per life-time on health care. I've proven that many times mathematically, much to the chagrin of others, but it is reality and reality is something that people have to get used to (and the sooner the better).

Like I said, you can tweak Social Security and keep it viable through maybe 2040 to 2050, but after that, you'll have to means-test, plus tweak it majorly to keep it through 2085, but for Medicare, the entire law basically has to be re-written with major changes made, if you want to keep it past 2025.

You all need to think about this (and rationally) because it will come upon you sooner than you think (and certainly sooner than the government claims). If you are not prepared, the government will ram something down your throats in haste that doesn't work and will end up getting abandoned further on down the road anyway.

The federal government shouldn't be running Social Security or Medicare anyway. That should be left to the States. What people don't understand is that this is not Iceland (population 457,000) with a uniform cost of living throughout and it isn't Norway (population 5 Million) with a uniform cost of living throughout.

This the US, and it's bigger than Europe in size and population (and economy) and the cost of living varies dramatically from State-to-State, and often city-to-city within a State.

Liberals haven't figured that out yet.

So what happens when the federal government sets the price of an office visit via Medicare at $30?

That's great for thousands of doctors across the US who only charge $15 to $20 for an office visit, because of the cost of living in many areas, and it's even better because they can raise the price of an office visit to $30 and profit handsomely off of it.

But it ain't so great for those doctors and patients in other areas of the US where an office visit costs $35, or $45, or even $60.

Those doctors and patients lose.

The government's "One-size fits all" mentality only works in a kingdom where there is only one size (like Iceland...and Norway...and Luxembourg...and a host of other countries).

Originally Posted by Katiana

A hip replacement is not "extraordinary" means.

It is when they are already bed-ridden and will continue to be so after the surgery.

Originally Posted by AnnieA

I'll finish reading the rest of the thread but, I so agree with this post. My family is long lived and we do have some health problems but not huge ones.....I somehow get the feeling with these posts that at a certain age, we should go out, sit under a tree and die so that we won't cost anyone any money.

[Darkatt]

YUP! This FORD dealership put this woman on ICE, and lost a new ford truck!

59-year-old woman who never held a hockey stick wins a truck with this amazing shot

[texas7]

Originally Posted by claudhopper

Where is Fannin?

Houston, Texas in the Medical Center that Houston is renowned for.

[texas7]

[quote=Mircea;22240009]
You have prescription medications like Semprex-D, Naphcon, Vasocon, Zaditor, Patanol, Optivar, Beconase, Flonase, Nasocort, Nasonex, Rhinocort, Veramyst. azmacort, Flovent, Pulmicort, Asmanex, Q-Var, Alvesco, Aerobid, Symbicort and Advair.

Those are allergy medications.

Will people die if they don't take them? No. Will they cause life-threatening problems? In the vast majority of instances, no.

So why pay for them? This is about "feeling good," not "getting well." Those are medications that people want, not what people need, and if they want them, they can pay 100% out-of-pocket.

If you had allergies like some people do - bet you could almost guarantee you would want some sort of allergy meds. Some of those you listed are Asthma meds and that can be life threatening.

[Taratova]

Originally Posted by WestCobb

Beth Baker is right. People over 80 shouldn't expect the public to pay for expensive procedures to extend their lives. My grandpa, now deceased who was a member of the greatest generation .... World War II veteran ... didn't expect the public to foot the bill for expensive procedures to keep his well worn ass alive. He came from a generation that understood self sacrifice. Now that the selfish, entitled, given-everything and gave-nothing-back Boomers are old, they are going to bankrupt the system by squeezing every last nickel they supposedly have coming to them out of Medicare. Old people aren't what they used to be.

If you want expensive procedures to keep you alive, and believe that should receive these before 10-year-olds with cancer who haven't had a chance to live get theirs, then you should pay for them yourself. Period.

Some people expect to live forever.. it is a kind of greed.. we are limited here on this earth and the time will come we shall all depart. It is a part of life, a time for everything.

[Katarina Witt]

If people need prescription drugs to prevent a life-threatening issue, you can pay for that on a case-by-case basis. If a Phatassâ„¢ needs Lipitor because of high blood pressure, you tell them you'll buy their meds for a year; they got 12 months to drop 60 pounds; and at the end of the year, they start buying their own Lipitor 100% out-of-pocket if they want it.

One of two things will happen: They'll find the money to pay for it, or they'll get off of their Phatassâ„¢ and go walk 20 minutes a day and drop the weight to decrease their high blood pressure. Same thing for Type II Diabetes.

How funny! Lipitor is not a blood pressure medication; it's a cholesterol med. And some thin people have high BP and cholesterol as well.

So you have a third possibility: They are already thin and their cholesterol doesn't go down despite dietary modifcation.

[Taratova]

Originally Posted by Katiana

How funny! Lipitor is not a blood pressure medication; it's a cholesterol med. And some thin people have high BP and cholesterol as well.

So you have a third possibility: They are already thin and their cholesterol doesn't go down despite dietary modifcation.

I have seen skinny people eat like a horse and they can pack away alot of junk food as well.. yet there are fat ones who eat small portions and still stay fat and are active. Got to do with metabolism as far as I have observed..

How do those small people win those hot dog eating contests and the fat big guys lose all the time??

[jefffla01]

I myself dont have a real desire to live to 85 or 90 if having to put with endless medical problems and dilemmas.

Death panels are of course unconscionable------we have to find a creative way to increase the quality of life for our younger citizens, and reducing the monumental financial drain medicare has created.

I am a moderate, but I can agree on an eventual phasing out of medicare and allowing younger working Americans a contributory option to provide future medical care in old age----either a health related contributory IRA program, contributory vouchers, or some bonding program.

My father is 84----still active and enjoying his life-----I shutter at contributing to his lack of options on health care.

Something has to be done to plug up the financial sieve-----the cost of medical care is killing this country----medicare has to be addressed and so does the drain on our hospitals caused by the uninsured and people who are illegally in the country.

[ray1945]

Originally Posted by Mircea

If everyone were like me, it wouldn't be a problem. I'm a disabled vet; I go to the VA damn near weekly if not twice a week; and I have a condition that is not being treated. Why? Because I'm not in pain. I probably would be in pain if I didn't have non-specific neuropathy caused by playing with nukes 400-450 hours a month for 3 1/2 years, but other than falling down a couple a times a week while walking or jogging, it's no big deal to me.

Now I could be a jerk and waste $200,000 on MRIs, CAT Scans, PET, x-rays, and all kinds of medication, even surgery, but what would be the point?

Maybe if I was an Attention Prostitute I'd get off on all the attention, and then of course, I'd have lots of things to complain to all of my friends about and hog the conservation by discussing my medical condition.

Are you seeing VA medical personnel when you "go to the VA"?

If you have not been tested, scanned, x-rayed, etc, how do you know what your non-treatable condition is? If you are not suffering, why would you even need treatment??

[Lolipopbubbles]

Originally Posted by marcopolo

(snip) Can we switch the focus from Ray's mom to a more extreme case? President Obama's mother was taken out of hospice, terminal with cancer, for a hip replacement. They buried the woman and her new hip about two weeks later.

I am not a medical professional, but wouldn't painkillers have been a better solution? I don't think anyone can afford that kind of waste.

I know this thread is a few months old but I happen to come across it and couldn't resist reviving it.

Yes I thin painkillers would have been a better solution.

If you are still on this board Marcopolo and come across this post please let me know what you think about people who are in their 70's to 80's age range who get surgery for heat conditions like bypass surgery. Would it be worth trying to save their lives so they could have a better quality of life and because pain killers won't help them but surgery could I see having surgery then. But when terminal and in being in the 80's age I would think the best and dignified thing to do would be make them as comfortable as possible and give pain relieving medication that won't take away what little quality of life they have left.

Geez I bet that surgery his Mother had is what killed her. The stress and pain of surgery alone even with pain killers I would think would be too much at that age. To me it's not worth it when already terminal. But if not terminal then it's worth it. Thing is I don't know to what extent the damage to her hip was so maybe the surgery was the only choice she had and pain killers alone wouldn't have been enough. It's hard to tell sometimes and it's a shame this Country has handed out so much money to people who only use it for a free pass in life. Expensive medical proceedures are not the only reason we have this mess and now have to consider cutting back and choose between the elderly and the young. It's all the services, handouts, madicaid, section 8, welfare, with no limits per recipient, relatives of recipients, and generations. IMO medicare is not the problem medicaid is and all the other handouts given to recipients of those programs who didn't put a dime into it them.