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Just pointing out Republican hypocrisy on the matter of freedom of religion. You seemed to want to throw the "hypocrisy" label around so I thought I'd point out to you that hypocrisy is hardly a unique trait for Liberals as you'd like to attempt to claim.
Funny. You have spent so much time here arguing with yourself you have declined to actually address the topic.
What hypocrisy ? At that time in history, slavery was accepted and legal.
In many countries I might add.
Well, it isn't as though Jefferson himself didn't see it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJ
There must doubtless be an unhappy influence on the manners of our people produced by the existence of slavery among us. The whole commerce between master and slave is a perpetual exercise of the most boisterous passions, the most unremitting despotism on the one part, and degrading submissions on the other. Our children see this, and learn to imitate it; for man is an imitative animal. . . . Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever: that considering numbers, nature and natural means only, a revolution of the wheel of fortune, an exchange of situation, is among possible events: that it may become probable by supernatural interference! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us in such a context. But it is impossible to be temperate and to pursue this subject through the various considerations of policy, of morals, of history natural and civil. We must be contented to hope they will force their way into every one's mind. I think a change already perceptible, since the origin of the present revolution. The spirit of the master is abating, that of the slave rising from the dust, his condition mollifying, the way I hope preparing, under the auspices of heaven, for a total emancipation, and that this is disposed, in the order of events, to be with the consent of the masters, rather than by their extirpation.
This is a quote from 1781 from Jefferson... I think its clear that he SEES the hypocrisy, but concedes that nothing can be done about it at that time from a legislative standpoint.
Its a fair argument to make and it is how I DARE sleep at night knowing that Jefferson, a man who is to be lauded and respected for his role in the founding of this country, was also hypocritical...
(There's a VERY close parallel happening in the Presidential Campaign, but I hesitate to draw the comparison because I don't want to go off-subject, nor do I want to arouse the "haters" who won't see the forest for the trees regarding such comparison.)
You have written nothing that backs up your claim that you admire the Founding Fathers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhett_Butler
While Jefferson, Madison (oh, and guys like Hamilton: A FEDERALIST WHO BELIEVED IN A STRONG CENTRAL GOVERNMENT FYI) created an excellent framework for government...
I guess anything short of calling them perfect men is an affront to this country and must mean I "Hate America"?
(Do I need to strike up the band for you again? Or can you hum the "Star Spangled Banner" while you type your response? )
I guess anything short of calling them perfect men is an affront to this country and must mean I "Hate America"?
(Do I need to strike up the band for you again? Or can you hum the "Star Spangled Banner" while you type your response? )
You have said nothing positive about the Founding Fathers. A backhanded comment about a "framework" doesn't erase your expressed contempt for the men who founded your country.
You have said nothing positive about the Founding Fathers. A backhanded comment about a "framework" doesn't erase your expressed contempt for the men who founded your country.
I'm sorry, so admiring their accomplishments while expressing that Jefferson may have been a flawed individual is "expressed contempt" for the founding fathers?
I actually very much admire Jefferson, I just don't hold him up as a Christ-Like figure without reproach. I think TJ himself would say that's VERY "American" of me....
I'm sorry, so admiring their accomplishments while expressing that Jefferson may have been a flawed individual is "expressed contempt" for the founding fathers?
I actually very much admire Jefferson, I just don't hold him up as a Christ-Like figure without reproach. I think TJ himself would say that's VERY "American" of me....
I see you've morphed your opinion of Jefferson over the course of this thread.
A few more pages of comments and you'll be calling him a "hero".
I see you've morphed your opinion of Jefferson over the course of this thread.
A few more pages of comments and you'll be calling him a "hero".
Perhaps you'd care to show me where I said I disliked him?
Unlike you, I guess, an individual can display hypocrisy without drawing my contempt.
You took a comparative comment I made regarding you holding up Jefferson while railing against hypocrisy. I simply called you on it. But you keep searching the stands for that homerun ball to throw back, mmmmkay? If you're nice I'll sign it for you...
So does this mean that Jefferson would be happy with today's federal government?
They gave up their right to talk about government and its role to define social change by separating some people from others who were only a fraction of a person.
Frankly, I could care less what a slave owner who believed in the inherent inferiority of African people; who was an agronomic anti-industrialist would think 200 years after his death.
If, and only if, you are black, I could understand your sentiment. Based on your name, I assume you are. If your namesake was alive today it would be interesting to hear his thoughts.
Ironically, it is the very same constitution written by those founding fathers which has afforded the most freedom and protection to blacks. Countless practices or laws have rightly been deemed unconstitutional. Not withstanding the sentiment of some founding members, they were clear when they wrote "all men are created equal...".
Years later Lincoln reiterated that point, as did subsequent amendments.
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