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War on Gays, War on Christians, War on Women, WAR WAR WAR WAR......what good is any of it? Just keep doing you......nobody is gonna steal your ice cream cone, I promise! Sweet dreams, fellow humans
How old are you? I'm 35 myself, and sex was a huge topic of "consideration" and discussion when I was in school... we also learned to put condoms on bananas way back in the '80s, even had a few rather adult-themed assemblies on AIDS & STDs. So spare us with this notion of such "depravity" (how is safer sex a bad thing?) being a new phenomenon.
Ahh ... 35 ... that's a wonderful age. The mid 30's ... still young enough to keep up with the teenagers and the 20 somethings ... while preparing for your long journey on the path toward wisdom ... and believe me when I tell you ... you've only just taken the first steps ... with a long journey ahead of you.
I'm 55, which is a significant difference itself, but from an American cultural perspective, an entirely different world altogether. And because of that difference, would it be possible for you to concede that someone 20 years your senior, who has actually experienced both of those worlds might know a few things you don't? Or have you reached the conclusion that for the next 20 years, you'll likely learn nothing, or gain any more wisdom than you possess now? I'm being serious here ... not rhetorical.
From my perspective, the major cultural shift that took place between 1960 and the 1980's began long before you were born, and was well on it's way to completion by the time you were in diapers. So, you really have no contrasting perspective, as you only know what you've experienced, and you are ill advised to attempt to explain the facts of life for which you've only read about, to someone who actually lived and witnessed it.
Now, before you (or someone else) begins to do exactly that, by recounting to everyone the supreme unfairness and backward nature of that previous American culture for which the civil rights movement ... feminism ... and liberal philosophies saved us .... there is another side to that story, with important details conveniently left out .... like the disastrous status of our public school system today ... the economic mess all around us ... the largest gap between the haves and the have nots that has existed in this country since the beginning of the industrial revolution ... etc.
Your feelings and perceptions not withstanding ... the results are what tells the true tale, and the picture ain't very pretty ... if you'd only open your eyes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980
Really?? How do you explain the fact that homosexuality has always existed, and continues to exist in steady numbers? Hint: It doesn't take a gay person to make a gay child.
Yes ... REALLY .... and what does your response have to do with my statement? Nothing. It's a fact that homosexuals represent an extreme minority, and depending on who's figures you accept, the range is between 3-10 %. For the math challenged, that means that 90-97% of the population is heterosexual, and no matter how badly it may want to ... the tail cannot wag the dog ... not even by court order or decrees from congress. But one can severely damage the tail and the dog by continuing to force the situation.
I'm here to make a few important points clear. First, I happen to agree with the opinion that the Bible contains a lot of BS ... some really scary stuff in that Old Testament/Torah, and a careful reading would suggest that Jehovah was a pretty mean, vindictive and blood thirsty son-of-a-gun. So you'll not witness me making excuses or claiming such stuff is being "taken out of context". And if that God of the Old Testament is the real God, all of our arses are in deep doo-doo. Now, the New Testament is much less scary, but still contains some rather perplexing stuff itself. However, modern day Christianity has chosen to be selective in it's accounting of the new and improved Bible, with the higher level teachings and philosophies espoused by Jesus making up the majority of knowledge and attitudes of your average Christian person, which is a good thing. Constantly attacking these people and bashing their beliefs can serve no useful purpose ... but does fit the programming.
Sure, there are zealots and charlatans and hypocrites among Christians, just as there are within the ranks of atheists .. . if man is involved, there be corruption. But my experience with your everyday average Christian folk is mostly positive, and they are the ones I'd rather have as neighbors and friends, as opposed to a bunch of ner-do-well leftist loons who haven't the common sense to recognize how badly they are being deceived and used as a tool for the divide and conquer we're all being subjected to as a society.
That's right ... much to your protestations otherwise, it's not the intolerance from the right that's causing the societal breakdown seen today (which you seem to mistake as progress)... it's the constant aggression from the left, masquerading as self defense that's at the center of it. And it's not an accident ... it's part of the "program" to re-engineer society into a conglomeration of competing factions, engaged in endless back biting and jockeying for the upper hand. That's what's happening, and as the unseen hands responsible for this "program" continue to loot the country of every last vestige of wealth, the left marches on ... totally blinded by self interests, and clueless to their primary role in their own, and everyone else's destruction.
We've got the blacks against the whites .... the hispanics against the blacks and the whites ... the illegals against the citizens ... the women against the men ... the homosexuals against the heteros .... the lower class against the middle class ... the middle against the upper .... endless chaos that YOU CLAIM IS PROGRESS? The big question is ... what are we progressing toward?
Now, please do proceed to explain the facts of life to me ... I'm all ears ... and dying to know what your vision of the promised land is.
I did catch your earlier post and it makes great sense! I agree--the term bullying is over-used in this case, and incorrectly applied. He is not a bully; he's just not that intelligent. In this case, we have a guy who has a political agenda and equates insults with arguments. People like Dan Savage should respect others' beliefs and holy book.
Homosexuals are marginalized and so are Christians. But lately, I have been reading a number of posts about religion and Christianity in particular. It is overwhelmingly Christians who attend pro-life demonstrations, and usually the media doesn't mention that at all. Parents, journalists and the public protests. Then there are Christian students who are mocked by professors and gay rights activist like Dan Savage. Christian workers told to leave their opinions outside of the workplace, Christian civil servants fired for refusing to affirm views contrary to their faith, and Christians celebrating Christmas. Christians are marginalized and persecuted. It's unfortunate that people have to speak about others, their beliefs and practices.
I truly can't speak to his intelligence or lack thereof, although I will agree that it was foolish to use the words he did to make his point because it gave ammunition to people who want to misconstrue the spirit of what he said. Saying anything to give the appearance of attacking someone else's beliefs when an anti-bullying advocate is problematic. However, I do agree with the spirit of what he said (not how he said it), which is that a subset of (not all, not most) people do cherry-pick Bible verses and use them as a weapon against LGBT people via action (not just personally held belief). Had he chosen a different way to express that sentiment, I wonder if this thread would even exist. If I believed he was attacking faith in general or Christians in particular, rather than attacking the specific behavior I just referred to, I would have a problem with that. And as I've said a multitude of times across this thread, I do have a problem with how he chose to express himself to a teen audience, given his role as an anti-bullying advocate.
I can't address your second paragraph without taking this thread way OT, but truthfully, I do not see a systematic marginalization or persecution of Christians in this country. I suspect we could have a very interesting debate about that, which I'm happy to do on another thread. I also wanted to thank you for the interesting discussion with both of us being civil even where we disagree.
Last edited by eastwesteastagain; 05-03-2012 at 08:55 AM..
I don't think it's right to justify gay bullying in the name of Christ or any religion, and I don't think it's right for this man to have cursed the Bible either.
Bullying is bullying--I don't care what the content is.
I am a bit surprised that he chose that way to deliver his message, without thinking about the fact it would put a huge dent in his credibility.
I don't hate christians, just the hypocritical way SOME of them pick and choose which "sins" from the bible apply. So I'm criticizing a behavior, not hating a person.
And Christian people are criticizing a behavior, not hating a person. Just saying.
And Christian people are criticizing a behavior, not hating a person. Just saying.
Not necessarily. A lot of people use this excuse while they personally kick out people (rather than banning actions) from their churches. I know several LGBTQ people that were kicked out of their churches when people found out they're LGBT. Sorry but no matter which way you slice it, that is hating the sinner, not the sin.
I do believe some Christians do make a sincere attempt to hate the sin and not the sinner, but a lot of people do hate people, rather than actions. Not to mention, you can't take the gayness out of a person, just like you can't take the blackness out of a person.
For people who are still convinced homosexuality is a matter of behavior--so too is being a follower of Christ--can you take the Christian out of a person? If you are a Christian, how would you feel if someone said "you can be who you are and God loves you...as long as you stop going to church and believing in Christ." Isn't that a part of who you are? Can you really separate that out and still be who you are?
Thanks for the information. The point of my earlier post was just to point out that Mr. Voris seems to have a history of speaking outside of Church doctrine (for example, I found his comments about the US needing a Catholic dictator to be somewhat troubling). He is certainly entitled to his views, as are those who listen to him or agree with him, but I wouldn't want those unfamiliar with Catholicism to mistakenly think he speaks for all Catholics or for the Church leadership.
I did want to ask - it wasn't clear to me from his statements if he is against anti-bullying programs in their entirety or if he is just against anti-bullying programs that he sees as advancing a gay rights agenda?
Last edited by eastwesteastagain; 05-03-2012 at 08:48 AM..
Oh, us poor, put-upon, persecuted Christians, having to live with the knowledge that people we disagree with and don't like are allowed to exist. All we're trying to do is tell those dirty f@ggots how filthy and subhuman and diseased they are, but we can't even do that without people like Savage bullying us. Nevermind that gay teens are being ruthlessly bullied to suicide, have they ever tried not getting their way all the time, being disagreed with, and having to tolerate people besides themselves? Now THAT'S persecution! Just look at Matthew Shephard's killers, we put them in prison instead of giving them medals. Just another example of anti-Christian bigotry and persecution.
Sometimes, popular television is predictive of the future ... or paints a picture of a future that some have convinced themselves is desirable ... until they get it, and are forced to rethink their philosophies because of the unforeseen and unintended consequences.
BTW, are you saying that one must be a Holocaust Survivor or have attended a Westboro Baptist Church Funeral to have disdain for these things?
That's just silly. You repeatedly condemn ALL anti-bullying campaigns, and yet when asked to name one MAJOR campaign that is currently in public schools, you link to one being run as a test in 3 schools. What do you know of the major anti-bullying campaigns, and why are you so against them?
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Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
No. that is far from correct. First, CD has never been my "source" of information on any topic, but more of an opportunity for me to educate those who are relying on CD as their source. It's a tough job, and someone has to do it, and we know that won't be you.
Please name a major anti-bullying campaign currently in public schools, and why you are against it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas
My authority to speak on the topic comes from my decades of life experience, including first hand knowledge of how things "used to be" when I was in school, compared to how things are now. Experience that I'm betting someone calling themselves "zimbochick" is probably at a disadvantage.
That's the best personal attack you could come up with? Ironically the construct for my user name is the same as yours, so.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanrene
Once again, you are wrong. There was no expectation of what occurred.
This is SIMPLE. What about this doesn't the Left get?
Just ADMIT the POGarbage stepped over the line and engaged in behavior he claims to be a victim of.
His delivery was unfortunate, I have never contested that. The message that some Christians are hypocrites for cherry-picking certain parts of the Bible to support their bigotry is spot-on.
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... still young enough to keep up with the teenagers and the 20 somethings ... while preparing for your long journey on the path toward wisdom ... and believe me when I tell you ... you've only just taken the first steps ... with a long journey ahead of you.
