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discussions about mitt romney and his mormonism has prompted me to put this issue into its own thread. The Christian right constantly uses the argument that america was founded by christians, and that being the foundation of their beliefs that god should be in schools and government.
Lets look at this a little more factual.. and get some better insight.. or defending of the notion..
I for one, was not entirely educated in America as a child so I remember hearing two sides to it all.
For one you have to start off with the puritans not wanting to be members of the church of england... In those times in Europe Monarchs ruled the lands, and appointed themselves as representatives of god. To this day if you were to ask the queen of england, she holds to her position because she is under the belief that she is ordained by god in her position. Puritans wished to have freedom to exercise their own faiths, but were met with opposition because lack in believing in the church of england underminds the queens authority.
So, when Founding fathers were writing up our national documents.. they IMPORTANTLY stressed seperation of church and state, because they understood how positions of power are obtained by means of religion. How is someone suppose to argue with someone who insists they speak FOR god, and have the backing of thousands if not millions of fellow believers or followers? This is why promoting religion on the basis of "christianity being the founders religion" is playing with fire. When we start electing officials because they uphold christian beliefs and standards and impose them on the nation, they in fact are exercising the SAME position as the Monarchs of England. Founding fathers understood that god in his power and wisdom would be the ultimate judge, NOT the government. Granted in their time, anything outside the wrelms of christianity was unheard of to them, BUT the moral is the same.. If the nation is full of people who are not abiding by a christian god, let him who is god come down from heaven and destroy them. WHO is man to impose set choices for the masses. Are they not acting FOR god and not allowing a person agency which is god given so that they may choose for themselves that which is of god and that which is not? how can a person faulter in not praying to god when they are forced to every morning at school?
Anyway, something to think about... how can someone faulter away from god if their own government forbids it? That would be the same position the puritans were in all those years ago.. in the eyes of the monarch they were faultering away from god...
perspective....its interesting..
I fail to see the importance of preserving christian ideals in our government.. christian ideals can be preserved in the home and family.. thus allowing the AGENCY of others to NOT abide by it.. even if that means going to hell by christian standards... I'm sure the monarchs thought the same fate awaited the puritans...
when is the madness going to stop in this country?
Religion and Politics should never mix. "Western" countries and their government will of course have a moral foundation based on a Judeo-Christian teachings ( for a while a least) but to impose religious principles on citizens is nothing short of a religious dictatorship. People should be free to believe OR NOT , according to the dictates of their own conscience and to impose the will of some on all is just purely wrong.
People evolve, and what might have been true over 200 years ago ( not that I believe that all human beings were genuine Christians then either) should not be taken as a granted now.
Politics should be about inclusiveness, about finding a common good for all, not imposing the will of some for some bizarre "moral" reasons.
I wish politicians would keep religion out politics. I have nothing against a moderate Christian/Muslim.Hindu/ whatever leader but his spiritual leanings should have nothing with public policy making. Religion is a matter of private philosophy and beliefs should remain personal.
Religion in politics can only muddy the realm of policy making, and excuse what many will find unacceptable and intolerable.
Such emotive issues as abortion and euthanasia for example should not be influenced or decided by somebody's religious background but decisions ought to be made on reasoned and logical grounds.
The founding fathers; Washington, Jefferson, Hamilton, Madison, where an 'odd bunch' who where anything but avid church goers or preached religion like our glorious leader(s) of today.
In fact they tended almost to be that horrible word 'secular'. They where ahead of their time! Too bad some are not as 'visionary' today.
The Constitution's strict separation of church and state reflects the founders views and feelings; this was the case for over 230 years until today when it became 'hijacked' by the neo con brown shirts, and the 'cult of myth' they have given to religion. Religion perpetuates myth and can be rather closed minded, and afraid of change. Hmmm, that does ring a bell
Last edited by skytrekker; 10-17-2007 at 04:36 AM..
If a government can justify any excess use of force because the government is ruling under the name of God then a governmental tyranny will be created.
If a religion can use force to insure compliance in god’s name then a religious tyranny will be created.
When governments cannot use god's name and religions cannot use force than individual freedom of behavior and thought are possible.
Commingling government and religion destroys both.
The Constitution's strict separation of church and state reflects the founders views and feelings; this was the case for over 230 years until today when it became 'hijacked' by the neo con brown shirts,and the 'cult of myth' they have given to religion. Religion perpetuates myth and can be rather closed minded, and afraid of change. Hmmm, that does ring a bell
Oh, the seperation existed until today's "neocon" hijack? Interesting perception, perhaps a history lesson is in order:
A prayer on PUBLIC RADIO by FDR, the democratic president who instated welfare as a policy in America. Not what I'd call a neo con, but maybe you do?
Almighty God: Our sons, pride of our nation, this day have set upon a mighty endeavor, a struggle to preserve our Republic, our religion, and our civilization, and to set free a suffering humanity. Lead them straight and true; give strength to their arms, stoutness to their hearts, steadfastness in their faith. They will need Thy blessings. Their road will be long and hard. For the enemy is strong. He may hurl back our forces. Success may not come with rushing speed, but we shall return again and again; and we know that by Thy grace, and by the righteousness of our cause, our sons will triumph. They will be sore tried, by night and by day, without rest -- until the victory is won. The darkness will be rent by noise and flame. Men's souls will be shaken with the violences of war. For these men are lately drawn from the ways of peace. They fight not for the lust of conquest. They fight to end conquest. They fight to liberate. They fight to let justice arise, and tolerance and goodwill among all Thy people. They yearn but for the end of battle, for their return to the haven of home. Some will never return. Embrace these, Father, and receive them, Thy heroic servants, into Thy kingdom. And for us at home -- fathers, mothers, children, wives, sisters, and brothers of brave men overseas, whose thoughts and prayers are ever with them -- help us, Almighty God, to rededicate ourselves in renewed faith in Thee in this hour of great sacrifice. Many people have urged that I call the nation into a single day of special prayer. But because the road is long and the desire is great, I ask that our people devote themselves in a continuance of prayer. As we rise to each new day, and again when each day is spent, let words of prayer be on our lips, invoking Thy help to our efforts. Give us strength, too -- strength in our daily tasks, to redouble the contributions we make in the physical and the material support of our armed forces. And let our hearts be stout, to wait out the long travail, to bear sorrows that may come, to impart our courage unto our sons wheresoever they may be. And, O Lord, give us faith. Give us faith in Thee; faith in our sons; faith in each other; faith in our united crusade. Let not the keeness of our spirit ever be dulled. Let not the impacts of temporary events, of temporal matters of but fleeting moment -- let not these deter us in our unconquerable purpose. With Thy blessing, we shall prevail over the unholy forces of our enemy. Help us to conquer the apostles of greed and racial arrogances. Lead us to the saving of our country, and with our sister nations into a world unity that will spell a sure peace -- a peace invulnerable to the schemings of unworthy men. And a peace that will let all of men live in freedom, reaping the just rewards of their honest toil.
Thy will be done, Almighty God.
Amen.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnbound2day
Oh, the seperation existed until today's "neocon" hijack? Interesting perception, perhaps a history lesson is in order:
A prayer on PUBLIC RADIO by FDR, the democratic president who instated welfare as a policy in America. Not what I'd call a neo con, but maybe you do?
Almighty God: Our sons, pride of our nation, this day have set upon a mighty endeavor, a struggle to preserve our Republic, our religion, and our civilization, and to set free a suffering humanity. Lead them straight and true; give strength to their arms, stoutness to their hearts, steadfastness in their faith. They will need Thy blessings. Their road will be long and hard. For the enemy is strong. He may hurl back our forces. Success may not come with rushing speed, but we shall return again and again; and we know that by Thy grace, and by the righteousness of our cause, our sons will triumph. They will be sore tried, by night and by day, without rest -- until the victory is won. The darkness will be rent by noise and flame. Men's souls will be shaken with the violences of war. For these men are lately drawn from the ways of peace. They fight not for the lust of conquest. They fight to end conquest. They fight to liberate. They fight to let justice arise, and tolerance and goodwill among all Thy people. They yearn but for the end of battle, for their return to the haven of home. Some will never return. Embrace these, Father, and receive them, Thy heroic servants, into Thy kingdom. And for us at home -- fathers, mothers, children, wives, sisters, and brothers of brave men overseas, whose thoughts and prayers are ever with them -- help us, Almighty God, to rededicate ourselves in renewed faith in Thee in this hour of great sacrifice. Many people have urged that I call the nation into a single day of special prayer. But because the road is long and the desire is great, I ask that our people devote themselves in a continuance of prayer. As we rise to each new day, and again when each day is spent, let words of prayer be on our lips, invoking Thy help to our efforts. Give us strength, too -- strength in our daily tasks, to redouble the contributions we make in the physical and the material support of our armed forces. And let our hearts be stout, to wait out the long travail, to bear sorrows that may come, to impart our courage unto our sons wheresoever they may be. And, O Lord, give us faith. Give us faith in Thee; faith in our sons; faith in each other; faith in our united crusade. Let not the keeness of our spirit ever be dulled. Let not the impacts of temporary events, of temporal matters of but fleeting moment -- let not these deter us in our unconquerable purpose. With Thy blessing, we shall prevail over the unholy forces of our enemy. Help us to conquer the apostles of greed and racial arrogances. Lead us to the saving of our country, and with our sister nations into a world unity that will spell a sure peace -- a peace invulnerable to the schemings of unworthy men. And a peace that will let all of men live in freedom, reaping the just rewards of their honest toil.
Thy will be done, Almighty God.
Amen.
And nowhere in FDR's prayer is the particular God he's praying to identified, there are over 5,000 in recorded history, take your pick. It still does nothing to buttress the claims that America is by definition a Christian country.
And nowhere in FDR's prayer is the particular God he's praying to identified, there are over 5,000 in recorded history, take your pick. It still does nothing to buttress the claims that America is by definition a Christian country.
I'll give you a thousand bucks if you could point out where in my post I contended such a point.
FWIW, I think the church has a place in the country's daily life but it doesn't or rather should not dictate policies in the way the government is run.
Separation exists to make the distinction between private lives and public policy.
FDR's presidency was tremendously secular.
What we have today in the neocons and their followers harks back almost to the Celtic Druids and their myths, or even worse the 'Viking Vahalla' of 1930's Germany.
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