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Old 08-24-2012, 03:57 PM
 
31,387 posts, read 37,035,296 times
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And here I was think that this was going to be a thread about Capt Kirk, James T. that is.
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Old 08-24-2012, 04:38 PM
 
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I wonder what "sound prejudice" meant to him.
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Old 08-24-2012, 04:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
For those of us who don't believe that history began at Woodstock in 1969, gay still means happy.


Birthday Greetings from Joe Cocker - YouTube
The line from the Christmas song with the line, "Now we don out gay apparel" has a new meaning!
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Old 08-25-2012, 12:05 AM
 
Location: The Other California
4,254 posts, read 5,604,704 times
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Originally Posted by Sci Fi Fan View Post
I wonder what "sound prejudice" meant to him.
Reasonable prejudice. The kind of prejudice that keeps a man from jumping off a cliff he can't see over.
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Old 08-25-2012, 12:27 PM
 
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,329 posts, read 54,358,694 times
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Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
The context is social/political innovation, not scientific/technological innovation.
And?

WHEN did social/political innovation become so wicked?

The Stone Age?

After The American Revolution?

The French Revolution?

Just what is the statement supposed to mean other than someone whining about things that aren't to their particular liking?

BTW: How can you separate the two? Scientific/technological innovation inevitably leads to social/political innovation.
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Old 08-25-2012, 12:32 PM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
10,581 posts, read 9,780,337 times
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Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
1. Belief that a divine intent rules society as well as conscience, forging an eternal chain of right and duty which links great and obscure, living and dead. Political problems, at bottom, are religious and moral problems.
So, nobody can be a conservative unless he believes in God?

That's a new one.
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Old 08-25-2012, 06:25 PM
 
Location: Missouri
4,272 posts, read 3,786,482 times
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Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post

1. Belief that a divine intent rules society as well as conscience, forging an eternal chain of right and duty which links great and obscure, living and dead. Political problems, at bottom, are religious and moral problems.
This still dominates the conservative mind although, at the risk of sounding like Marx, political problems are also economic problems. A view that conservatives have always thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
2. Affection for the proliferating variety and mystery of traditional life, as distinguished from the narrowing uniformity and egalitarianism and utilitarian aims of most radical systems.[/b]
I think conservatives have been adopting, more and more, a live and let live attitude unless it contradicts their moral and religious covenants. The last part of this canon applies to thought and speech, though. Think and speak right or else be called a RINO.

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Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
3. Conviction that civilized society requires orders and classes. The only true equality is moral equality; all other attempts at leveling lead to despair, if enforced by positive legislation. Society longs for leadership, and if a people destroy natural distinctions among men, presently Bonaparte fills the vacuum.[/b]
It is this rule that shows how much libertarian thought has influenced conservative thought. Though he may believe it, no conservative says this out loud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
4. Persuasion that freedom and prosperity are inseparably connected, and that economic leveling is not economic progress.[/b]
This still dominates conservative thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
5. Faith in prescription [e.g., custom and tradition] and distrust of "sophisters and calculators." Man must put a control upon his will and his appetite, for conservatives know man to be governed more by emotion than by reason. Tradition and sound prejudice are checks upon man's anarchic impulse.[/b]
This rule has faded in importance due to libertarian influences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
6. Recognition that change and reform are not identical, and that innovation is a devouring conflagration more often than it is a torch of progress. [/b]
I can guess why Mr. Kirk wrote #6. Tradition (he believed the past should always be conserved, in my opinion) usually is destroyed by innovation. The reason for innovation is that the traditional ways don't provide for a changing society. Conservatives are as strong supporters of innovation as anyone else.

Interesting find, WP.
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Old 08-25-2012, 06:30 PM
 
Location: The Other California
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Originally Posted by Little-Acorn View Post
So, nobody can be a conservative unless he believes in God?

That's a new one.
No, it's an old one. A very old one.
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Old 08-25-2012, 06:57 PM
 
Location: The Other California
4,254 posts, read 5,604,704 times
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Thanks for the intelligent comments, geofra.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geofra View Post
1. Belief that a divine intent rules society as well as conscience, forging an eternal chain of right and duty which links great and obscure, living and dead. Political problems, at bottom, are religious and moral problems.

This still dominates the conservative mind although, at the risk of sounding like Marx, political problems are also economic problems. A view that conservatives have always thought.
I suspect that Kirk would argue that even economic problems are, at bottom, religious and moral problems. That's definitely my own position.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geofra View Post
2. Affection for the proliferating variety and mystery of traditional life, as distinguished from the narrowing uniformity and egalitarianism and utilitarian aims of most radical systems.

I think conservatives have been adopting, more and more, a live and let live attitude unless it contradicts their moral and religious covenants. The last part of this canon applies to thought and speech, though. Think and speak right or else be called a RINO.
Good observation re: the RINO and anti-RINO phenomenon. Kirk was definitely not a party hack. But this canon in historical context refers, I believe, to the tendency in America at the time - and right up to our own time among some conservatives - to demand a degree of conformity from American sub-cultures that effectively deracinates them and undermines their own legitimate heritage. Kirk lamented the destruction of ethnic neighborhoods in America's cities, for example, along with forced racial integration via school busing, and the mass uniformity that radio and television was imposing on society.

There's a definite tension within American conservatism on this point. But if you look closely enough at liberal projects like multiculturalism, you discover that it is really the same thing Kirk laments in this canon. Multiculturalism deprives every specific culture of public authority in society. In effect, multiculturalism itself becomes the culture and the only culture that is tolerated.

I believe that Kirk was also setting conservatism against American projects overseas. Some of his writing suggests that Americanizing our former enemies after WW-II, turning them all into commercial republics rather than preserving what was good in their historic cultures, was ill-advised and deprived the world of beauty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geofra View Post
3. Conviction that civilized society requires orders and classes. The only true equality is moral equality; all other attempts at leveling lead to despair, if enforced by positive legislation. Society longs for leadership, and if a people destroy natural distinctions among men, presently Bonaparte fills the vacuum.

It is this rule that shows how much libertarian thought has influenced conservative thought. Though he may believe it, no conservative says this out loud.
Personally, I don't see this. In my experience with the movement, libertarians are ideologically opposed to orders and classes, at least to the extent that they can't be bought by commercial success. But I'm open to being persuaded otherwise. Maybe some of C-D's libertarians can speak to the point.

I love this canon and don't mind saying it out loud.
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Old 08-25-2012, 08:51 PM
 
4,684 posts, read 4,571,931 times
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Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
Here are the Six Canons

This is the catechism. These are conservative principles, as far as allegiance to the republican ideals of the United States allow. Those who cannot agree and subscribe are not conservatives and should avoid identifying themselves as such. It matters not one whit whether Kirk wrote in the 20th century or the 16th; the essence of the idea of conservatiism makes such an objection otiose.

This is the real deal. If you thought you were a conservative, but find yourself in disagreement with these principles, then I must regretfully inform you that you are a Liberal at best and at worst a Jacobin. Welcome to grown-up politics.
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