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It's a simple question. Is there anything at all that is "off limits?" Aside from fully-automatic modern firearms, I see nothing in the Constitution specifically prohibiting sarin nerve gas, biological warfare agents, C-4 plastic explosive, rocket-propelled grenade launchers, radioactive material, or a number of other large combat devices. Please specify where the line should be drawn, if anywhere, and why.
It's a simple question. Is there anything at all that is "off limits?" I see nothing in the Constitution prohibiting sarin nerve gas, biological warfare agents, C-4 plastic explosive, rocket-propelled grenade launchers, radioactive material, or a number of other large combat devices. Please specify where the line should be drawn, if anywhere, and why.
I want one of these that are for sale. They are ready to be operational for firing.
The weapons of warfare like those you list are legitimately under the control of government because We the People have surrendered the control of those types of arms to government through war powers (principle of conferred powers and retained rights).
What we have conferred to government we can not claim as a right.
The other side of that coin is those things that we have not surrendered, the government can not claim as a power.
For the immediate discussion, no power was ever conferred to the government to have any interest whatsoever in the personal arms of the private citizen. We don't have the right to arms because of what the 2nd Amendment says, we have it because of the absolute silence in the body of the Constitution allowing government to have a say.
IOW, the right to arms is not granted, given, created or otherwise established by the 2nd Amendment so the endeavor of inspecting, parsing and "interpreting" it to discern what the right is is illegitimate. The right to arms does not in any manner depend on the 2nd Amendment for its existence.
The weapons of warfare like those you list are legitimately under the control of government because We the People have surrendered the control of those types of arms to government through war powers (principle of conferred powers and retained rights).
When did We decide that, and on the basis of what principle(s) did We do so?
When did We decide that, and on the basis of what principle(s) did We do so?
June 21, 1788, again, the principles of conferred powers and retained rights
Article I, § 8: Congress shall have the power
11. To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal,. . .
12. To raise and support armies, . . .
13. To provide and maintain a navy:
14. To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces:
The powers granted to the federal government preempt other entities acting in similar fashion, ie, states or the people printing their own money or raising and supporting their own army or entering into treaties with foreign nations . . . laws restricting people from doing those things are not violations of the freedom of press or assembly or the right to keep and bear arms because we have surrendered any claim of those things as "rights" (exceptions of powers not granted).
This principle, as applied to private citizens and weapons of war is directly addressed in the Constitution in clause 11 above and remains true and is applicable today.
The most devastating weapon of the time (Man o' War) were owned by private citizens (Privateer's) and through the Constitution, power / control over that weapon was granted to Congress. Private citizens could not maintain or sail these ships without the permission of Congress (receiving a letter of marque and reprisal).
The same principle allowing government to place restrictions on citizens owning / using those weapons of war can be applied to restrictions over citizens owning weapons of modern open warfare.
June 21, 1788, again, the principles of conferred powers and retained rights
Article I, § 8: Congress shall have the power
11. To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal,. . .
12. To raise and support armies, . . .
13. To provide and maintain a navy:
14. To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces:
The powers granted to the federal government preempt other entities acting in similar fashion, ie, states or the people printing their own money or raising and supporting their own army or entering into treaties with foreign nations . . . laws restricting people from doing those things are not violations of the freedom of press or assembly or the right to keep and bear arms because we have surrendered any claim of those things as "rights" (exceptions of powers not granted).
This principle, as applied to private citizens and weapons of war is directly addressed in the Constitution in clause 11 above and remains true and is applicable today.
The most devastating weapon of the time (Man o' War) were owned by private citizens (Privateer's) and through the Constitution, power / control over that weapon was granted to Congress. Private citizens could not maintain or sail these ships without the permission of Congress (receiving a letter of marque and reprisal).
The same principle allowing government to place restrictions on citizens owning / using those weapons of war can be applied to restrictions over citizens owning weapons of modern open warfare.
Ok. So...semi-auto with large-capacity magazines... those are ok for civilian use, presumably.
What about fully auto?
If fully auto, how does this one work out in the classification?
Ok. So...semi-auto with large-capacity magazines... those are ok for civilian use, presumably.
Yes to the point that all this ban talk is tilting at windmills.
Using the current Supreme Court criteria to determine a firearm type's protection status under the 2nd Amendment, those arms are really what is all about.
Those criteria state that to be protected by the 2nd Amendment the arm must be of the type:
In common use at the time and/or
usually employed in civilized warfare and/or
that constitute the ordinary military equipment and/or
that can be employed advantageously in the common defence of the citizens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambient
What about fully auto?
Well, it is clear that full-auto meets the criteria of protection under the 2nd and Congress knew in 1934 when they created the registration and tax scheme to restrict ownership that they could not "ban" that type of firearm.
That law (Title II of the National Firearms Act of 1934) has faced challenge over the years and has been sustained but by applying a lesser standard of scrutiny than what would be applied today (post Heller).
A real challenge would be interesting but I don't see that happening. Too many infirm laws restraining the ownership and use of typical civilian arms out there waiting to be challenged and struck down to go after Title II.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambient
If fully auto, how does this one work out in the classification?
There are hundreds of thousands of various Title II firearms in private hands today. Plenty of Ma Deuce's out there too . . . in the eyes of the law a .50 caliber belt fed Ma Deuce is not any different than a .223 M-16.
The registry was closed in 1986 and no new guns have been added since then; that has only served to make these guns a good investment . . . An M-16 in good condition goes for upwards of $12,000 or more.
There are huge shoots where Title II owners get together and have some fun. The Knob Creek Shoot in Kentucky happens twice a year and draws thousands from across the nation.
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