Study shows college students think they are more special than ever (holidays, suspect)
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One result of this is that too many think that they can graduate from college and walk right into a high paying job. But people in top level positions had to earn their way, by proving that they were competent and had acquired the skills.
It has been said that college graduates today have the education equivalency of high school graduates a few generations ago. We have "dumbed down" education.
Exactly.
Back a number of years ago, it wasn't so unusual to find college students working their way through college -- many of us did and we learned real job skills while also attending class. Working alongside others was a good education, you reallize you're not so special and many without college degrees are smart and hard working. Back when kids were more likely willing to work and go to college, the 4 year graduation rate was much higher.
Today kids think they have it hard when all they have to do for a whole 15 or 18 hours a week, out of a total of 168 hours is sit and class and party the rest of the time. They've been raised to believe they are simply too good for anything under a 6 figure a year job.
Back a number of years ago, it wasn't so unusual to find college students working their way through college -- many of us did and we learned real job skills while also attending class. Working alongside others was a good education, you reallize you're not so special and many without college degrees are smart and hard working. Back when kids were more likely willing to work and go to college, the 4 year graduation rate was much higher.
Today kids think they have it hard when all they have to do for a whole 15 or 18 hours a week, out of a total of 168 hours is sit and class and party the rest of the time. They've been raised to believe they are simply too good for anything under a 6 figure a year job.
Interesting. We were required to work to graduate. We had to have 12 months co-op experience as part of our program. Do colleges not require work experience before graduation now?
You're being very patronizing....I've only ever spoken my mind. If you see a resemblance...then that's all on you.
For what it's worth...someone who talked a bunch of smack then got shot because of it...yeah, I have no interest in emulating. I'd like to live a nice and long life. Why die young and miss out on all the fun?
Older folk tend to patronize youth when we see some of their former thoughts restated. I hear the same frequently at work from young staff.
Here is the secret of life. We all get what we earn if we play the game properly.
I can't believe you actually spent time writing that bilge.
What's funny is you read it and took time to comment on it.
My point was that I don't see why older folk seem so disjointed. A good example, I think, is the whole "left" vs "right" dichotomy. It wasted a whole bunch of effort, I think, and I have hard time believing such ideological divides will factor into things as much as it seems to on your end.
I'm not sure if in this generation we won't be just as splintered, but I'm guessing we won't be. It just seems like everyone older than me thinks "I'm right and you're wrong" whereas people my age are like "Just get it done". No one really cares if you're opposed to them ideologically...those differences help keep you grounded anyway. I guess, maybe it's a consequence of the "trophy culture"...these days everyone gets a trophy, yes...but, personally, I don't care about trophies...they're easy to get...just show up and follow the rules. What matters is actually doing things of consequence as efficiently as possible.
Another way of putting it "If everyone gets a trophy then the trophy stops mattering". The ends sought aren't really "achievement", rather "efficiency". Achievement is a given.
Also...because it's relevant....I've read a bit on the Strauss-Howe generational theory model...and this is what it has to say about millennials..
Quote:
Hero generations are born after an Awakening, during a time of individual pragmatism, self-reliance, and laissez faire. Heroes grow up as increasingly protected post-Awakening children, come of age as team-oriented young optimists during a Crisis, emerge as energetic, overly-confident midlifers, and age into politically powerful elders attacked by another Awakening.[44]
Due to their location in history, such generations tend to be remembered for their collective military triumphs in young adulthood and their political achievements as elders. Their main societal contributions are in the area of community, affluence, and technology. Their best-known historical leaders include Cotton Mather, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, John F. Kennedy and Ronald Reagan. These have been vigorous and rational institution builders. In midlife, all have been aggressive advocates of economic prosperity and public optimism, and all have maintained a reputation for civic energy and competence in old age. (Examples among today’s living generations: G.I. Generation and the Millennials.)[45]
I don't know if our generation has any "military triumphs" to speak of though...were Iraq and Afghanistan a success?
What's funny is you read it and took time to comment on it.
My point was that I don't see why older folk seem so disjointed. A good example, I think, is the whole "left" vs "right" dichotomy. It wasted a whole bunch of effort, I think, and I have hard time believing such ideological divides will factor into things as much as seems to on your end.
I'm not sure if in this generation we won't be just as splintered, but I'm guessing we won't. It just seems like everyone older than me thinks "I'm right and you're wrong" whereas people my age are like "Just get it done". No one really cares if you're opposed to them ideologically...those differences help keep you grounded anyway. I guess, maybe it's a consequence of the "trophy culture"...these days everyone gets a trophy, yes...but, personally, I don't care about trophies...they're easy to get...just show up and follow the rules. What matters is actually doing things of consequence as efficiently as possible.
Another way of putting it "If everyone gets a trophy then the trophy stops mattering". The ends sought aren't really "achievement", rather "efficiency". Achievement is a given.
Also...because it's relevant....I've read a bit on the Strauss-Howe generational theory model...and this is what it has to say about millennial..
I don't know if our generation has any "military triumphs" to speak of though...were Iraq and Afghanistan a success?
I didn't say my program was a piece of cake program. I said college has been dummied down and it has been. My program is actually considered one of the more rigorous. The rigor, however, does not compare to what college was 20 years prior. The difference from the 1990's to the 2000's is shocking.
I disagree on organic chem. I don't think most college grads are taking it. However, that's rather moot considering it's a course offered in most high schools. What I can't say is if that particular course has been dummied down to the high school level. I took organic back when college was college. I'm shocked for what passes for a college course these days. And before you go off about MY university. It's in the top 100 in the nation. The problem is education itself has been dummied down. Sadly, the crop of students I attended school with struggled with that. It does not bode well for our future.
Because education has been dummied down, more education than ever is now required to enter the work force which means more debt (and more profit for the universities). Sadly, all of this education no longer insures employability. It's an interesting pickle.
You are not hearing what I am saying. You're, completely, dismissing that I have 30+ years in the work world and attended college during two different generations. I've watched new hires morph from eager to learn and prove themselves to thinking they've arrived on day one. When I started my career, it was rare to see a new hire who thought they were all that and the powers that be made darned sure they were knocked off the pedestal fast. Today, you're hard pressed to find someone who wants to work to prove themselves.
The cashier stories show the depth of the problem. These cashiers were the best people they could find for those jobs. Cashiers are a common example because we all run into them. I find that older cashiers have no diffculty making change but younger ones, more often than not, get confused easily (seriously, I don't know how they keep their drawers straight.)
I'm not talking about idiots in each generation. I never said there aren't any in mine. I'm talking about an overall change I've witnessed over the past 35 years. It's not one incidence here or there. It's systemic. It's the norm to see 20 somethings who think they are owed something...who think they deserve a job and pay just because they graduated...who have zero drive to improve and prove themselves because they think they're already all that.
Life will burst their self esteem bubble but it will be painful for all. My fear is they will turn to the government to give them what they think they deserve (we're already seeing this) and when the government runs out of money, we're all screwed.
Oh I don't know then. I guess since you've taken organic chemistry (although according to you hardly anyone takes it), went to one of the top universities, claim that your teaching certification test is equivalent to what you learned in 7th grade, have 30+ years experience in the work world, and had several lousy incidences with young cashiers that puts you in the right position to generalize an entire generation.
I stated my opinion on the OP a few posts back. Of course you probably think your experiences are more accurate.
It's funny you keeping mentioning that college graduates and millennials come across as arrogant, yet in your own posts you come across as arrogant because you "know, experienced, and seen it all" with young people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Edited to add: One of the biggest issues I see in education today is that students aren't equipped to learn on their own. They think googling is research. THAT is scary. Thinking seems to be a lost art. I fear for our future.
Yeah what a shame that a college student uses google to find a peer-reviewed journal article for their research paper!
One does not require an education, especially a college degree, to be an idiot.
Not all colleges have the same teaching level.
If you have the choice of going to a local community college and a college that is widely recognized, which would you choose and why?
Would a local community college teach at the same level and have the same quality as a college that is widely recognized?
Many of us have heard/read/seen negative and ignorant nonsense from millennials.
The point the poster was making, and myself, is that there is a mass population out there that cannot think for themselves. Machines do their thinking for them. When you grow up attached to a computer, a mobile, video game machines, you are not made to think. I don't think you get it because you have grown up surrounded by technology. We did not have the technology you have grown with, we had to use our heads and think!!!
And which generation invented and marketed those machines to do the thinking for them?
Last edited by ThinkingElsewhere; 01-12-2013 at 06:50 PM..
Oh I don't know then. I guess since you've taken organic chemistry (although according to you hardly anyone takes it), went to one of the top universities, claim that your teaching certification test is equivalent to what you learned in 7th grade, have 30+ years experience in the work world, and had several lousy incidences with young cashiers that puts you in the right position to generalize an entire generation.
I stated my opinion on the OP a few posts back. Of course you probably think your experiences are more accurate.
It's funny you keeping mentioning that college graduates and millennials come across as arrogant, yet in your own posts you come across as arrogant because you "know, experienced, and seen it all" with young people.
Yeah what a shame that a college student uses google to find a peer-reviewed journal article for their research paper!
LOL You might want to make sure who you are talking to before you fly off the handle. I happen to have two degrees in chemical engineering, a math major, a chem major, an ed major and a physics minor ). Yes I took organic chemistry in college but I am far from the typical college student.
My high school doesn't teach organic only because there isn't enough interest but my mentor teaches one class a year. Her school has about 800 students. So, yes, I'll go with few people take it. Few people at my college took it. Only one course per year was offered, of course the college version is two semesters long with a lab. The high school version is, usually, one semester with one semester or analytical. My mentor is lucky to have 15 students in those classes.
Personally, I cannot speak to how organic chem has/has not been dummied down because I took it back when a college degree was more than a high school diploma and I didn't take it in high school (it was offered I just chose not to take it). I do know that my math, computer, psych, liberal arts, and ed courses were a cake walk compared to my math, computer, psych and liberal arts (I'll toss in religion too. I went to a jesuit university and we took two very intense religion courses that dealt with the, percieved, conflict of religion an science.)
And WHY are we arguing about ONE course as if it alone determines whether or not what passes for college today has been dummied down?
So, how did your high school and college organic courses compare?
There is no doubt we have dummied down college. I know it because of the 20 years between my engineering degree and my MAT and I went to a better college the second time, I didn't get a better education but the college had a better name. We've dummied down high school too. I teach honors chemistry in a very affluent district and I do not teach what I was taught in general chemistry when I was in high school. If I tried I'd be tarred and feathered for expecting too much of my students. I already get hammered for pacing too fast and I only teach about 75% of what I learned in high school chemistry and I went to a lousy school.
A few years back, I interviewed to teach a college chemistry class. I was told afterwards that while they appreciated my depth of knowledge that their students couldn't handle chemistry at that level (I came in low). I was told it needed to be taught closer to a high school level. (I was offered the job but didn't get the message in time to accept it because my dd was in emergency surgery (they needed someone to start the next week and could not wait)) You haven't offered me one shred of evidence that college has not been dummied down. I know it has been. My semester exam in high school chemistry was the big ion identification lab that is now done as an lab in AP chemistry. We had a week to figure out how to identify all the ions in the two test tubes we were handed. There is no way I could do this lab with my chemistry classes. It's a college level lab now. How's that for dummying down?
I find the slow pace I have to teach frustrating because I know how much fun those challenging labs are. I can't get to them though. My students can't think enough to do them. They need their hands held (they've grown up with everything they've ever done being approved by someone). Why could my high school chem teacher do this lab, in a general ed class, but it's only done as an AP lab today? You don't think we've dummied down? I know we've dummied down both high school and college. I don't think it's far off at all to compare a high school diploma from the 70's to a liberal arts bachelors today but I'll let you know in a few years for sure. I have two kids headed off to college. I'll see what they are being taught.
Google is a serious issue because kids today don't actually read what they google. They just look for answers. I get some really interesting lab reports. I have kids doing things like using phrases that they, obsiously, do not understand because they don't apply to the lab we're doing. What they do is not research with Google. I wish it was. Too often there is, clearly, no understanding of what they read. They string together passages and alter a few words so it's not plagiarism but end up with gibberish and don't even realize it's gibberish. That won't cut it in the real world.
As to my posts comming across as arrogant, that is your interpretation. I'm pretty average intellectually. The fact I found college so easy this time around just shows how easy college has become. It should not be misconstrued as me being smarter than everyone else. I just come from a different generation. One that knows how to work to learn. I've had a lot of practice at it. I do worry about our future when I look around me though. The inability to think is a problem and I saw a lot of that in college this last time around. I see it in my high school students but I hold out hope for them because they're still in high school and I try to make them think. Of course their parents cry foul but I do try.
As to those cashiers....the more time passes, the more of them I meet up with. Their numbers are increasing. I assume the establishments in question are hiring the best person they can for the job. If they're the best, I'm concered for our future. We're talking counting change here not calculus.
Here's an article from the Washington post that discusses research on how study time has fallen for college students:
"Some critics say colleges and their students have grown lazy. Today’s collegiate culture, they say, rewards students with high grades for minimal effort and distracts them with athletics, clubs and climbing walls on campuses that increasingly resemble resorts."
This is not just my imagination. College was much easier this last time around. I was working full time and caring for two small children on top of going to grad school and I still pulled all A's and it wasn't difficult.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 01-12-2013 at 08:53 PM..
Interesting. We were required to work to graduate. We had to have 12 months co-op experience as part of our program. Do colleges not require work experience before graduation now?
Depends on the major and the college. What work experience are they going to require of a philosophy major?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
There is no doubt we have dummied down college. I know it because of the 20 years between my engineering degree and my MAT and I went to a better college the second time, I didn't get a better education but the college had a better name.
You had two vastly different majors. I was a teacher myself, but I'll go ahead and say it, education classes are intellectually easier. On average, those intending to get a graduate degree in education, score lower than any other cluster but social work. Education majors also score lower on IQ tests. That could explain why your peers the second time around didn't seem as bright.
Google is a serious issue because kids today don't actually read what they google. They just look for answers. I get some really interesting lab reports. I have kids doing things like using phrases that they, obsiously, do not understand because they don't apply to the lab we're doing. What they do is not research with Google. I wish it was. Too often there is, clearly, no understanding of what they read. They string together passages and alter a few words so it's not plagiarism but end up with gibberish and don't even realize it's gibberish. That won't cut it in the real world.
I agree with you and ended up having to make all work and research turned in be done in hand written format only. I simply refused to accept anything typed. I've known more than a few middle and high school teachers who have gone that route. However, I will tell you that one of the reasons grad school seemed so much easier to me the second go around was because of technology. Not only is research so much easier but being able to correct errors in a paper without having to start the whole blasted thing over is an incredible work time saver.
I do agree with you that college is the new high school. Just remember, saying no one will fall behind is the same as saying no one will surge ahead. It's a shame really, because high school was free.
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Cashiers are a common example because we all run into them. I find that older cashiers have no diffculty making change but younger ones, more often than not, get confused easily (seriously, I don't know how they keep their drawers straight.)
). Yes I took organic chemistry in college but I am far from the typical college student. 
