I feel like the solution, is as simple as the three F's. (wages, global warming)

[Redshadowz]

Free Markets, Free Trade, Free immigration.

If you instituted these three principles in as full a capacity as possible, would the world be perfect? No. Would there be equality? No. Would there be people complaining? Absolutely.


But when I look at the problems of the world. I can't help but think that basically any problems the world could possibly create, would be effectively alleviated if you could implement these policies.


I mean, famine in India or Africa? Wouldn't be anywhere near as severe, if there was free trade and free immigration.

Global Warming and rising sea levels? Worried that Bangladesh will end up under water? Free immigration = problem fixed.

Poverty in Africa? Free Markets, free trade, free immigration, real poverty will almost vanish from this Earth.

Countries at war with each other? Let me tell you, no country wants to go to war with another country in which its economy is heavily integrated with. Countries who rely heavily on trade, want peace.

On top of this... With these policies in place, you would actually see more morality, not less of it.



The problem with these policies, is the welfare state. The welfare state cannot allow for free trade and free immigration. Free immigration means the welfare state would be inundated with people in need of assistance. The welfare state protects immorality and irresponsibility, and thus perpetuates and expands it.



When I see people bickering about both real problems and supposed problems facing the world today. All I can think is that, in the absence of government intervention, there would be practically no real problems in the world. Would everyone get along? Absolutely not. But it would be far better than what is going on in the world today.



But before you disregard my rant as simply meaningless. I want you to think of the outcome of a hypothetical situation.

Lets pretend that the entire United States effectively instituted a libertarian society, and instituted effectly free markets, free trade, and free immigration... No welfare state, almost no social services, and almost no regulations at all. The only role of government would be to protect individuals from real harm from others. Such as fraud, coercion, assault, murder, theft, etc.


What would be the outcome of such a nation? Would Americans flee to other nations? Would the economy collapse? Would the average American become poorer? Or would opening up markets, trade, and immigration, create an environment where businesses flocked to the United States in huge numbers, as well as people flocking to the United States in huge numbers. If business and people began flocking to the United States, wouldn't then the economy of the United States grow significantly? In the absence of the welfare state, wouldn't everyone who came to the United States, necessarily have to produce enough to take care of themselves? Thus they would generally have to produce more than they even consumed for themselves. Thus, there would be an increase in the availability of goods and services.... Wouldn't large swaths of this country that remain relatively uninhabited and undeveloped, suddenly have explosions of population? And thus new demand for real estate and housing, in which is currently struggling?


Lets even pretend that only a small section of the United States could somehow break from the federal and state and even local governments and institute libertarian principles. Would its population soar or shrink? Lets pretend that even a section of one major city in the United States even put in place effectively libertarian polices. Would its population expand or shrink?

I mean, imagine simply alleviating building and zoning laws in a section of a major city. Where people could effectively build whatever they wanted on their property, without requiring permits or licenses. Wouldn't that effectively create a surplus of housing, driving down costs, and thus bringing people in huge numbers to live in those areas?

If you can possibly concede, that libertarian policies would drive down costs, and attract businesses, and thus would inevitably attract huge numbers of people. Wouldn't you concede that whether or not the people said they were happy or not with a libertarian society. The fact that they "voted with their feet" to move to such a society, because they believed they were better off... Isn't that an admission that ultimately such a society is better?


In my opinion, if the United States could turn effectively libertarian tomorrow. And institute freer markets, free trade, and free immigration. The economy wouldn't simply be growing at a couple percent a year or worse. The economy would be growing by double digits, for the foreseeable future. And more importantly, the people of the entire world would be benefit.



I always rationalize it like. What would happen if the United States annexed Kenya tomorrow. And we basically turned it into the 51st state of the United States. Which would necessarily provide it free trade and free immigration to the United States... Would the average Kenyan be better off or worse off? Would the average American be better off or worse off?

Its only true that the average American would be worse off, if the Kenyan was able to receive assistance of some sort(welfare). In the absence of welfare, the Kenyan would be guaranteed absolutely nothing. And would have to work, and thus provides more goods and services for the nation. And thus, more people equals more human capital, equals more goods and services, which should not negatively affect the standard of living.

Will there be poor? Will statistically it appear as if the United States is becoming worse off? Would there be more severe inequality? Yes, Yes, and Yes. This was also true in the 1800's, as the incredibly poor European immigrants came to America. Most living in what are effectively slums, which were called tenements, with many people sharing a single room. But they came here to make a better life for themselves, and they wouldn't have come in such huge numbers had they not believed they were better off from the move. More importantly, large-scale immigration of the past did not cease until the government began restricting immigration in the early 1900's. Had the government never intervened in immigration, a much much larger number of immigrants would have come here. And primarily what caused the government to intervene, was the expansion of welfare programs during that time, as well as racism and xenophobia. If the government had never instituted such polices in the early 1900's. Not only would more Europeans have come to America. But people attempting to escape such places as the Soviet Union, and the Jews who were trying to escape Nazi Germany and other countries in Eastern Europe, would have largely avoided their eventual fate. People all over the world, who have been living under oppressive regimes, would have had a place to go, if only they could somehow make it there.


I just find the world as it is today a complete embarrassment. These people with such good intentions, to me are completely evil. These people who say, we can't bring in foreign labor, unless we are willing to pay them a high wage, are condemning those foreigners to even worse misery wherever they are trying to escape. Because they would not come to the United States supposedly to be exploited, if they didn't believe that even the low wages were better than what they are currently receiving, they would stay in their country.

There are women from poor countries, offering to work for very low wages for people in rich countries, and there is this outcry by do-gooders about how these evil rich people are exploiting these women from poor countries. And all I want to say is, the women want to be exploited. Because they don't see it as exploitation, they see it as an opportunity. They see it as an improvement. And I'm tired of these supposedly good people, who impose all these welfare programs and government interventions, supposedly in the name of helping people. Ultimately keeping people in misery.


I get tired of people complaining about how people can't afford to pay rent, or that there are people who are homeless. All while the government puts in places so many regulations on housing, which inevitably drives up the cost of housing, which is absolutely the reason why people can't afford to pay rent, and leaves so many people homeless.


I don't even want to fight about it anymore, because its like such a ridiculously stupid fight to begin with. I don't even see how there is even a debate, when the reality should seem pretty obvious to anyone with any logical ability whatsoever. And before you dismiss me once again, ask any economist what they think of free-trade. Because 99.9% of economists agree that free-trade is basically always a good thing. Only stupid ignorant protectionist people, thinking they are protecting their own interests at the expense of everyone else, are opposed to free trade. Ask an economist what they think of much more open immigration policies. Inevitably, more immigration fuels much more growth. The only objection by economists to immigration, is always welfare. From a growth perspective, immigration is always beneficial. Let people go to where the jobs are at, anywhere in the world. Let labor go to where its needed, anywhere in the world.

Anyway, I mean, I just can't help but wish that everyone would take an economics class before even stating an opinion. I can't help but wish that ignorant people would quit stinking up the political dialogue. I just can't but wish that people would start thinking with their brains, and more importantly, their grey matter. Rather than their emotions, or from their narrow-minded, selfish, protectionist view of the world.

I mean, the state of the world today is a complete embarrassment to me, and I'm just sick of even arguing about it.

[pch1013]

Originally Posted by Redshadowz

I'm just sick of even arguing about it.

Apparently everyone else feels the same way.