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Okay Carol, how about the non-stop angry disposition for one and making sure EVERYONE steps aside so your preferences can be met....how about this for "fair"
You can choose to live your life however you wish in any manner that you wish so long as it doesn't impede on the rights of others. You may pursue any employment you wish so long as it abides by the laws set forth, good or bad, by those around us.
You have the right to be drafted and killed at any time for the needs of our country....just like the rest of us
You have the right to apply for a job with NO special set asides for those that are gay. I don't care that you are gay or want equal rights. I'm entirely fine with that.
You can not pray in school as much as anyone ELSE may wish to pray in school...fair is...well...fair?
You have the right to do pretty much whatever you please right up to the point where we have to make accommodations for gays.
You can adopt, you can marry, you can divorce, and you can pay alimony, child support, and watch more than 1/2 of what you earn go to your ex. I do NOT care....
You have the right to march as much as the KKK, Black Panthers, and even the Westboro Baptist Church (ugh).
You have the right to hate "breeders" as much as you do to have their hated sperm give you a kid.
You have to tolerate the hatred of those that oppose you
You have the right to protect yourself by all means necessary as much as those have the right to protect themselves by all means necessary who may do them harm.
I want to now see you endorse all of this in its entirety. C'mon, it's not that hard. Be "okay" with bigotry towards you, no special set asides and endorse it with a smile.....
I'm waiting...
Who has to step aside for me to be treated equally under the law?
In many state I can not adopt, in fact that is one issue I am dealing with. My partner can not legally adopt our children. I can not have a legal civil marriage that is state and federally recognized.
I do not hate "breeders", my parents, sisters, friends, and other family are heterosexual. Why would I hate them?
I do not have to tolerate being treated unequally by the country I pay taxes to. There is legal recourse, and we are using that legal recourse.
I have the right to self defense, and I'm armed, and trained in self defense. (I don't see why that matters)
Actually I can't be drafted, since I am a female, but believe that the draft should apply to both males and females equally.
Employment, I have no issues with, other than I can still be fire simply for my sexual orientation in many states.
I have never asked for any special set asides in employment.
Never asked for any special accommodations in the law, simply equal treatment.
I have never marched for any cause. I have never been to a pride parade.
I will not "be ok" with bigotry in the laws of the country that I am a citizen of. YOU personally can be as bigoted as YOU want, but I will not tolerate the laws treating me unequally.
Now, can you show me even ONE special right I want?
Immune from hate speech? Let's start there....from what I understand, it's completely okay to hate white, married, "breeders" with absolute immunity. However, for some, if that SAME speech were applied to those who may be gay, that would be considered a "hate crime" of sorts.....
And god forbid, Steve and Kevin get clipped in the back alley while doing the nasty, that would be a "hate crime".....I would just call it murder and all civil and legal penalties should/would apply. Would it really be ANY different than say a man and woman in repose doing similar acts suffering a similar fate?
Would THAT be considered a hate crime? What would we call that? A BJ hate crime? A Lovers hate crime? I know, a HETEROSEXUAL hate crime? Oh wait, that would NEVER fly.....would it.
Let's just call it murder shall we?
When one pushes for "rights" like this, they speak specifically to "special". And NO one is special. Not even you, not even me. No, we are just two humans trying to find our way in life. If yours takes you into the arms of another member of the same sex, have at it.
I think you will find most hetero's don't give a darn about who you fall in love with. I have no problem with you enjoying marital bliss as well as marital hell when you get divorced. BUT, when it comes to SPEECH, that's free. Hate away....it's ONLY speech.
Now doesn't THAT sound equal??? I don't hear hetero's screaming about the litany of speeches clearly filled with hate clearly aimed at them....do you? I love this quote from Michael Douglas' movie, American President.
Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You want to claim this land as the land of the free? Then the symbol of your country can't just be a flag; the symbol also has to be one of its citizens exercising his right to burn that flag in protest. Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your classrooms. Then, you can stand up and sing about the "land of the free".
None of us have evolved this far but, we may not be as far apart as you may think. It's fine to want equal rights and there is no argument that your community may not have achieved that status but, as the quote indicates, be prepared for what you wish for. That means that others who, dare me, oppose you should have EQUAL rights and protections under the law to spend their lifetimes opposing those views.
Equal Rights? Absolutely.....Special and protected to include jobs (affirmative action and immunity from speech)? Not a chance.
Again, no one got shot, I don't care what you do or believe, just don't go past the line of equal. We have enough of that with special interests...
We don't have hate speech laws in this country. I wouldn't want hate speech laws, that is a violation of the first amendment.
I, personally, believe that hate crime laws need to be seriously looked at. A lot of the crimes being called hate crimes are simply crimes. Maybe more stringent criteria. However, I do know that if a heterosexual was killed by a homosexual while the killer was yelling "breeder" there would more than likely be hate crime penalties.
That's self-serving nonsense. If you pay $150 to see some chart-topping performer, does that give you the right to go up on-stage mid-concert to get him/her to hear your audition personally? That's utter entitled nonsense. My question is whether you'd support such a inanely entitled perspective if it was someone you liked being heckled.
That's a ridiculous analogy. They paid to hear her sell the Obama's to the gay's. I don't know why it's so outrageous to think they might have something to say also. She's the salesman, they are the one's buying what she's selling or not. If you're not willing to hear feedback, you are disengaged and don't really care what they want or think. It's tit for tat. I give you what you want, you give me money. They want to know what they're getting. Sounds reasonable.
She couldn't care less about what you think or what you have to say.
Last edited by claudhopper; 06-06-2013 at 11:04 AM..
Not it's not. It's a perfect analogy, and you're vainly trying to dupe people into thinking it isn't, because you don't have any defensible rebuttal to it.
Why don't you let us know next time you're speaking in front of a group of people so we can be sure that you receive the heckling that you are defending so vigorously.
Immune from hate speech? Let's start there....from what I understand, it's completely okay to hate white, married, "breeders" with absolute immunity. However, for some, if that SAME speech were applied to those who may be gay, that would be considered a "hate crime" of sorts.....
Try again. There is no legal prohibition against speech.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb Longstreet
And god forbid, Steve and Kevin get clipped in the back alley while doing the nasty, that would be a "hate crime".....I would just call it murder and all civil and legal penalties should/would apply. Would it really be ANY different than say a man and woman in repose doing similar acts suffering a similar fate?
Do yourself a favor and take just a REMEDIAL course in criminal law.
INTENT - mens rea - are always considered aggravating factors in deciding the level of crime and severity of punishment.
Whether it's in the hate crime context, or not.
One is not prosecuted for a hate crime merely for committing a crime against a gay person. One is instead prosecuted if the target was purposely sought out on the basis of whatever the hate crime protects - religion, race, sex, sexuality.
And get this: Hate crime legislation is not a "Special" right. Anti-discrimination laws DO APPLY to straight, white, heterosexual males. IN fact, a lot of early case law in the discrimination arena were brought by white males.
The laws are neutral and are not special. Blacks are prosecuted under hate crimes just as whites are. A gay person targeting straights and committing violence against straight people has just as much opportunity to be prosecuted under the same hate crime laws.
You hear about because the instances of gays attacking and targeting straight people on the account of their sexuality are far and few between - and indeed, extremely outweighed by the number of crimes going the opposite direction.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb Longstreet
Would THAT be considered a hate crime? What would we call that? A BJ hate crime? A Lovers hate crime? I know, a HETEROSEXUAL hate crime? Oh wait, that would NEVER fly.....would it.
Are you speculating, or have you done some research? Why would someone be killed for having sex in an alleyway anyway?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb Longstreet
Let's just call it murder shall we?
Bullcrap.
How many of you social conservatives just looooove posting stories of white folks being targeted by black folks, specifically because they are white?
I mean, a crime is a crime, right? You should be just as upset if someone beats you up and takes your wallet as you are if they beat you up just because you have white skin, right? Why make any issue about it? People are mugged everyday.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb Longstreet
When one pushes for "rights" like this, they speak specifically to "special". And NO one is special. Not even you, not even me. No, we are just two humans trying to find our way in life. If yours takes you into the arms of another member of the same sex, have at it.
Wrong, wrong wrong. There is NOTHING SPECIAL ABOUT GAY RIGHTS. Not a single thing sought by gay people is something that only applies to gay people.
yep, those rights. The right to be drafted when needed and sacrificed when called upon. Some have been. I'm sure some gays have been killed in the line of duty as well. I have no problem with that. I have no problem with anyone wanting equal rights. I think you missed my point. When we have to bend for agnostics and atheists, which is truly their right, the rights become "special" for some.
trying to makes sense of this confusing statement. Gays do serve and have died...that's a given. Gays now openly serve. Progress. Your point is? How is this related to agnostics and atheists having the same rights as you? How is that special???? What's special about keeping separate church and state?
my point is that it is fine to be gay. No one should be persecuted. While i may not agree, i would seek nor wish harm upon anyone. I don't think you should be bashed or hated but, you can't stop either so you, like the "breeders" will have to learn to live with it. The fact that you get a camera makes you special.
so blacks should of just put up with lynchings? This is what i mean about the lack of logic in you arguments. Camera? Are you referring to media coverage? You don't like the media covering a huge social change that is currently happening? You just don't know the media then.
i don't see cameras really being set up for those that wish to remain okay with prayer and christmas.
In short, read my last reply and you will see where i am coming from. Stop the noise. Most people don't give a flying f what you do, where you come from, or who you love. We really, really don't. The only one making this much noise about it is you. Date who you want, live where you want, pursue your happiness.
forget it. The noise across the world will continue until equal rights are achieved. Not all gay people are out there protesting etc. The vast majority are just living their lives, but thankful that someone is fighting the fight. It's rather patronizing to suggest to people to just be quiet because you don't like the noise.
just don't complain when you truly come under ever feasible equality standard to include divorce, alimony, etc. Some resist this although i believe it is law already.
in case you missed it, i live in canada. I live with the reality of equal rights. Yes even gay divorce, alimony etc. Oooooo. Scary. Not.
see? No one got shot, no protests were needed, and no cameras required.
yes and no more states granted equal rights in marriage, no more states made it illegal to fire you or deny you housing for being gay. I think you severely lack the understanding of why there is gay rights movement. Staying home did not grant me all the rights that i now have with my partner because the law recognizes him as my spouse. Not because we got married, we didn't, but because we are common law in the eyes of the law, just like straight people.
live large my friend....live large....
you still have failed to make a simple logical statement about naming one special right gays are asking for. Just one, that's all people are asking. You seem unable to answer that.
Progressives have this notion that all lesbians and gays are persecuted sweet little angels. They treat this class as if they should be elevated to an elite position in society. Like all groups of people there are the good - the bad and the so so. In my experience I have known some nice lesbians...and some horrid ones..Some passable gay men and some that were so damned evil and self serving that it made me cringe. You can not paint a whole group with the same brush..that we should bow to their every whim and want. Some gays that I have met are raging haters...My rule of thumb is...Treat me with care and respect and I will respect you also...BUT if you hold me in contempt and loathing you will get the same back. Being gay or lesbian does not make someone immune from judgement.
Yet another poor reflection on the homosexual. This egregiously ignorant sorry individual apparently feels that it is somehow acceptable to interrupt the First Lady simply because she belongs to a protected class of perpetually unhappy disgruntled malcontents and then expects the media and other like minded losers to defend and support this outrageously disrespectful and highly obnoxious behavior.
Yes, and I've never been able to forgive straights for Hitler.
Progressives have this notion that all lesbians and gays are persecuted sweet little angels. They treat this class as if they should be elevated to an elite position in society. Like all groups of people there are the good - the bad and the so so. In my experience I have known some nice lesbians...and some horrid ones..Some passable gay men and some that were so damned evil and self serving that it made me cringe. You can not paint a whole group with the same brush..that we should bow to their every whim and want. Some gays that I have met are raging haters...My rule of thumb is...Treat me with care and respect and I will respect you also...BUT if you hold me in contempt and loathing you will get the same back. Being gay or lesbian does not make someone immune from judgement.
Who is asking for an elite postition? All we want is the same position,, not one lower than yours. I do not hate straight people, heck, most of my best friends are straight people. Of my 32 clients, only one is gay. Most of the people I deal with are straight. I treat them with respect and get the same back, but if they treat me like crap because they find out I am gay, I treat them with respect in return. The hate is coming from those who want to encode their religious beliefs upon every single US citizen regardless of religious affililation or sexual orientation. And pretty much most of it by christians pushing their bible down everyones throats. I was taught the Golden Rule by a very religous Catholic Mom and it was do unto others as you would want done unto yourself, not T i t for Tat. That is revenge and revenge is loathful and evil. I am not religous am an athiest after many years of saying I was agnostic, but I understand morals. I know many gay people too of both sexes and they do not represent this heckler. Same as not all christians hate those who are not like them. One cannot get along with their neighbors if you spend most of your time judging them and not judging yourself first.
Who has to step aside for me to be treated equally under the law?
In many state I can not adopt, in fact that is one issue I am dealing with. My partner can not legally adopt our children. I can not have a legal civil marriage that is state and federally recognized.
I do not hate "breeders", my parents, sisters, friends, and other family are heterosexual. Why would I hate them?
I do not have to tolerate being treated unequally by the country I pay taxes to. There is legal recourse, and we are using that legal recourse.
I have the right to self defense, and I'm armed, and trained in self defense. (I don't see why that matters)
Actually I can't be drafted, since I am a female, but believe that the draft should apply to both males and females equally.
Employment, I have no issues with, other than I can still be fire simply for my sexual orientation in many states.
I have never asked for any special set asides in employment.
Never asked for any special accommodations in the law, simply equal treatment.
I have never marched for any cause. I have never been to a pride parade.
I will not "be ok" with bigotry in the laws of the country that I am a citizen of. YOU personally can be as bigoted as YOU want, but I will not tolerate the laws treating me unequally.
Now, can you show me even ONE special right I want?
sure can, just tested it, you can't stand the speech. Who's arguing with you? I have no problem with you adopting or whatever it was you mentioned and yes, you ARE right. You ARE paying taxes so it should be the same. Just don't ask for protections like HATE crimes or HATE speech...suffer the same Shiite any and all have to suffer...including you doing some tours in IRAQ/Aghanistan/KickTheCanistan or whatever...no problem.
If someone takes a big verbal dump on you or kicks the bejeezus out of you and your partner, it's not hate, it's violence. Period. Penalize the culprits, leave the gay audience out of it, and move on with your bruises.
There is no hate crime or hate speech. It's just crime. Kill affirmative action and all the other crap and special set asides. Its not your job or mine to kill it but, in the eyes of most of the "silent majority" we don't want to see ANYTHING special tagged to it?
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