Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You have just stated the primary reason why marriage is so important, even when couples do not want children, their sexual activities create them anyway.
We as a people put a lot of effort into trying to convince as many sexually active adults to get married, and stay married, so they can raise their children. We do not want this double digit out of wedlock birth rate, it's destroying our society.
It's just one of the fundamental differences between gay marriage and traditional marriage, we are not motivated to get gay men to marry, out of concerns they might accidentally create babies out of wedlock. We do not worry that two gay men, who live together, will create a child that neither man wanted nor expected.
So are you saying gay and lesbian couples (even though many are already raising children), should be penalised because many heterosexual people are irresponsible about sex? And the children of gay and lesbian couples should be penalised too with their parents not having the same legal protections and benefits as those irresponsible heterosexual couples? How do gay and lesbian couples getting married even affect those irresponsible heterosexuals anyway? Wait.... Perhaps they can set a good example for them?
Nope. What purpose is "wedlock" for the children? Your social engineering goals, notwithstanding. I know of a couple that refuses to get married, and have been together for years and years... but a home together, and have recently started a family together. Is theirs any less legitimate a family? Are their children harmed in some way?
Forcing people to be together for the "sake of the children" who shouldn't be together is a proven recipe for disaster.
It is of course best for people to be responsible, and only have children with people that they are committed to raising children with. But, we live in the real world.
Marriage is no longer "for the children." It's for adults. An entire separate body of law concerns children from that which concerns marriage.
Your entire way of looking at this subject, and the process you used to justify your arguments are all skewed.
The selfish view, is that marriage is no longer about children, it's only about pleasing the adults. The gay marriage debate has skewed marriage, so too many people now think it's only about making the adults happy, so they get special tax breaks, and special property and entitlement protections etc... People in bad relationships is not the problem. People making babies and walking away from them is. Marriage is important, only because of the children.
If babies were hatched in test tubes and raised by the state, then marriage would not even exist.
We do realize that many people really suck at maintaining long term personal relationships. Which is why we offer so many incentives and go out of our way to encourage men and women to enter into successful, long term marriages. Do people enter into successful loving marriages all the time? No, and this is precisely why we as a people put so much effort in promoting marriage.
We do worry that thousands of men and women might engage in sexual relationships and make babies out of wedlock, because this would be detrimental to our country's future. So we need these men and women to enter into a long term marriages. We do not worry that thousands of gay men will make babies, so we do not give a crap is they ever marry.
Your continued citing of rare cases with sterile couples, or couples who refuse to have children are irrelevant, because they are not the norm, and they are a waste of breath to argue about.
Sure I have study. Give me some bucks and I'll make any study you wish, including one that will prove that Sun is moving around the Earth.
Sure you can. That's pretty much how every anti-gay study out there is proposed.
But the studies being discussed here have no financial or special interest agenda, and have been done for decades in academic settings (as opposed to commissioned by religious nutjob groups).
We can also point to any number of a seemingly endless supply of outed clergymen, politicians, etc. who built CAREERS on advancing a "family" agenda while trolling bathrooms or rent boys looking for man-sex.
At any rate, while I'm sure you thought "Opposing racism makes someone a racist" was SOOO clever, it is not. It's actually absurdly stupid, placed in context. Sorry to burst your bubble.
And millions of heterosexuals can not conceive together. Your point?
Not every person on the planet needs to reproduce.
The point is, that the norm is procreation, something impossible between two gay men. It's common sense, and fundamental. What percentage of the male female heterosexual population is sterile? Less the one percent. So why is this something that is worth discussion?
The selfish view, is that marriage is no longer about children, it's only about pleasing the adults. The gay marriage debate has skewed marriage, so too many people now think it's only about making the adults happy, so they get special tax breaks, and special property and entitlement protections etc...
Well, who do you think is supposed to get those tax breaks and property protections? The children? You'd be wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OICU812
Your continued citing of rare cases with sterile couples, or couples who refuse to have children are irrelevant, because they are not the norm, and they are a waste of breath to argue about.
Yet sterile couples and couples who choose to remain childless probably outnumber gay couples by a wide margin. What do you think, 2 to 1? 5 to 1? 10 to 1? 20 to 1? You are truly overestimating a menace that does not exist.
Your entire way of looking at this subject, and the process you used to justify your arguments are all skewed.
The selfish view, is that marriage is no longer about children, it's only about pleasing the adults. The gay marriage debate has skewed marriage, so too many people now think it's only about making the adults happy, so they get special tax breaks, and special property and entitlement protections etc... People in bad relationships is not the problem. People making babies and walking away from them is. Marriage is important, only because of the children.
If babies were hatched in test tubes and raised by the state, then marriage would not even exist.
We do realize that many people really suck at maintaining long term personal relationships. Which is why we offer so many incentives and go out of our way to encourage men and women to enter into successful, long term marriages. Do people enter into successful loving marriages all the time? No, and this is precisely why we as a people put so much effort in promoting marriage.
We do worry that thousands of men and women might engage in sexual relationships and make babies out of wedlock, because this would be detrimental to our country's future. So we need these men and women to enter into a long term marriages. We do not worry that thousands of gay men will make babies, so we do not give a crap is they ever marry.
First of all, who is this "we" that you speak of?
The majority of this country has already moved on to believing that gay marriage should be a right. So, it is not "we" who you profess to speak on behalf of anymore.....but rather it is only YOU and your ever-shrinking minority on this issue.
Next, modern marriage is NOT ABOUT CHILDREN. It IS about the adults. If it were about children, it would be very, very easy to limit marriage only to men and women of child-bearing age. Some states also require(d) blood tests, so a fertility test would not be that hard to order as well. But we don't do this, because children, or the ability or potential to have children together, IS NOT AND HAS NOT BEEN REQUISITE for marriage for as long as anyone alive today has been around.
Society - if it has any interest whatsoever - has an interest in stable households. Regardless of the composition of those households.
Not to mention, OICU812 (who I am sure does not have children, and is likely not married).... a full 30% of same sex households in this country ARE raising children. This number is very similar to the rates of opposite-sex households raising children.
So, even if we were to believe marriage was "about the children," - which it is not - where these same sex households EXIST and are raising children at rates similar to heterosexuals, then marriage must be extended to those couples FOR THE SAKE OF THE CHILDREN.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OICU812
Your continued citing of rare cases with sterile couples, or couples who refuse to have children are irrelevant, because they are not the norm, and they are a waste of breath to argue about.
Right. Because people who are "not the norm" or are "not common" do not deserve equal treatment under the law.
Still does not work, dude. Sterile couples cannot conceive, they are allowed marriage. And having your own offspring is not required, that is why people adopt.
People in general have never been denied the right to marry...Two people who ever they are can simply move in together and live out their lives together. The legal title of marriage is sought after in earnest because it is a social status symbol with benefits..Typical gay culture are all into status no matter how superficial. To want a TITLE...or seek status is something generated by ego and insecurity. This is a lot to do about nothing...The fact is gays and lesbians have the dysfunction or phobia - that prevents them from having intimate relationships with the opposite sex. They suffer from heterophobia. This condition is now being politically reinforced to the point of - If a gay or lesbian falls in love with the opposite sex...it will be frowned upon and restricted by supposed gay culture and their supporters.
People in general have never been denied the right to marry...Two people who ever they are can simply move in together and live out their lives together. The legal title of marriage is sought after in earnest because it is a social status symbol with benefits..Typical gay culture are all into status no matter how superficial. To want a TITLE...or seek status is something generated by ego and insecurity. This is a lot to do about nothing...The fact is gays and lesbians have the dysfunction or phobia - that prevents them from having intimate relationships with the opposite sex. They suffer from heterophobia. This condition is now being politically reinforced to the point of - If a gay or lesbian falls in love with the opposite sex...it will be frowned upon and restricted by supposed gay culture and their supporters.
Do you really believe the stuff you post or is it just an attempt to make increasingly ridiculous claims just to get reactions from us?
People in general have never been denied the right to marry...Two people who ever they are can simply move in together and live out their lives together. The legal title of marriage is sought after in earnest because it is a social status symbol with benefits..Typical gay culture are all into status no matter how superficial. To want a TITLE...or seek status is something generated by ego and insecurity. This is a lot to do about nothing...The fact is gays and lesbians have the dysfunction or phobia - that prevents them from having intimate relationships with the opposite sex. They suffer from heterophobia. This condition is now being politically reinforced to the point of - If a gay or lesbian falls in love with the opposite sex...it will be frowned upon and restricted by supposed gay culture and their supporters.
A gay person will not fall in love with someone of the opposite sex.
That person is a bisexual.
Get the basics down, then come back.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Glad to see you finally got it figured out.