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Old 08-05-2013, 08:12 AM
 
Location: Jacksonville, FL
11,145 posts, read 10,718,210 times
Reputation: 9800

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
It would not have a central government planning everything. That can only go wrong, the more so the bigger the country because with increasing size things easily get too complex to plan, and the consequences of wrong planning can be disastrous. Plus, with big units anonymity increases, which in turn increases corruption and crime. I am a fan of small units.

There would be a list of clear priorities and goals, i.e. food production, housing, clothing, water and energy etc. The goal would be independence from abroad in those areas. Everything else would be considered mere add-on's of luxury.


Regarding your video, yes of course many went to the West. It is like with any animals: Lock them up in a cage for a while, then open the door and they will automatically run away as soon as they can.
But during those 24 years most East Germans have become much more realistic, for many there was a rude awakening. Economically, their country was plundered by the West.
Right. The East was plundered by the West dumping money into the economy of the more poverty-stricken Eastern states.

Go read this article before you type anymore about how the West plundered the East. It will keep you from looking foolish... hopefully.

 
Old 08-05-2013, 08:40 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,947 posts, read 24,759,378 times
Reputation: 9728
The important sentence is right at the beginning:

"the East’s already weak economy broke down completely"

It did not break down completely all by itself, it was plundered by people from the West.

Of course pouring money into a place after the damage was done didn't help much as the foundation was destroyed by the Treuhand before.
 
Old 08-05-2013, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Jacksonville, FL
11,145 posts, read 10,718,210 times
Reputation: 9800
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
The important sentence is right at the beginning:

"the East’s already weak economy broke down completely"

It did not break down completely all by itself, it was plundered by people from the West.

Of course pouring money into a place after the damage was done didn't help much as the foundation was destroyed by the Treuhand before.
The East's economy broke down because any worker that had a decent skill set ran for the West as soon as the wall came down. Socialism killed the East, and the West has spent the last quarter of a century trying to rebuild it. But you go right ahead and think that capitalism was the cause of the downfall, rather than blaming it on the inherent problems of socialism. Those people lived under the socialist regime all their lives, and as soon as they had a chance to get out they grabbed it and never looked back. What better indication is there that socialism doesn't work than the fact that people who lived in socialist East Germany took the first bus out of there?

Any time you have a government which forbids its citizens from leaving the country on threat of death or injury to themselves or their family members, that form of government is a bad one. East Germany did it, the USSR did it, North Korea and China do it now. There is no better indicator of societal failure than a society whose citizens are forced to stay there.
 
Old 08-05-2013, 03:16 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,947 posts, read 24,759,378 times
Reputation: 9728
That is exactly why I said that it was the good old animal flight impulse, out of the cage and run as far and fast as possible...
I mean, when the wall came down, East Germans knew socialism had ended in their country, those going to the West might as well have stayed in the East.
 
Old 08-05-2013, 03:33 PM
 
Location: Jacksonville, FL
11,145 posts, read 10,718,210 times
Reputation: 9800
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
That is exactly why I said that it was the good old animal flight impulse, out of the cage and run as far and fast as possible...
I mean, when the wall came down, East Germans knew socialism had ended in their country, those going to the West might as well have stayed in the East.
The West already had all the things that the East Germans wanted. It was their first taste of freedom in over 2 generations. Why shouldn't they have run?
 
Old 08-06-2013, 06:27 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,947 posts, read 24,759,378 times
Reputation: 9728
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimRom View Post
The West already had all the things that the East Germans wanted. It was their first taste of freedom in over 2 generations. Why shouldn't they have run?
Because they were free now anyway, in the East as well. As I said, it was simply a mix of flight instinct and curiosity when the cage was opened... Plus, most people did stay in East Germany, anyway. After all, people had their families and friends in the East, their homes, whether owned or rented, most people anywhere don't and can't just pack their bags and move house...
 
Old 08-06-2013, 01:14 PM
 
5,915 posts, read 4,815,687 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirdik View Post
Do you really have to experience something to know that it is bad?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Yes. Else it is just speculation, assumption, etc.
"Only the foolish learn from experience — the wise learn from the experience of others." Romanian Proverb.
 
Old 08-06-2013, 01:16 PM
 
5,915 posts, read 4,815,687 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tlaneloli View Post
What socialist nations?

So the ownership of the vast majority of capital in a country is bad?
Yes, centralized ownership is bad.
 
Old 08-06-2013, 01:18 PM
 
5,915 posts, read 4,815,687 times
Reputation: 1398
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tlaneloli View Post
Well that's how these state capitalist states everyone uses as examples were organized, like the Soviet Union, the most famous one, it was state capitalist not socialist.
so·cial·ism (ssh-lzm)n.1. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.

That describes the USSR pretty well. So yes, it was socialist with state guaranteed jobs, free education, healthcare and housing.
 
Old 08-06-2013, 01:27 PM
 
5,915 posts, read 4,815,687 times
Reputation: 1398
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Of course the US way of life is a catastrophe for the world...
What exactly is the US doing that is catastrophic for the world?
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