Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I've since spent more time with this person and he's not a bad guy but I will never forget such a statement. Don't get me started on how hard it can be to catch a cab in DC (although that is starting to improve). Catching a cab in Washington DC will remind who and WHAT you are. Almost all DC cab drivers are black.
You mean, most DC cab drivers are Africans, e.g. from Nigeria, Ghana, Kenya, etc.? That was my experience living in central DC 20 years ago.
I was raised in the Bahamas until I moved to America at the age of 15. This is a generalization, but it seems like you guys really don't know how good you have it here. The opportunities are endless here in America but yet you guys don't take full advantage of what is available. Some of you are gonna say "But you don't know how hard we've had it!" Most of the immigrants I speak of are Black, no? Then why aren't we discriminated against becoming successful? I want to see my American brothers and sisters be successful, but you guys haven't taken the necessary steps.
Signed,
a successful man from the country east of Cuba, southeast of Florida, and north of the Dominican Republic and Haiti.
Toward other AAs? Not in the least. American blacks are seriously dividing themselves in this country I see more and more of this by the day and its usually the upwardly mobile criticizing and scrutinizing the poor ones more than they attempt to assist them. I can cite 100 examples but start here.
You're not derailing this thread; that was going to be my next question: Is there a similar divide between the growing upwardly-mobile, educated, upper-middle class AA blacks and those who are trapped in the cycle of poverty, etc? I know it exists ("acting white, etc") but being white, I don't hear it talked about openly among black people .... especially among black politicians, ministers, etc.
You're not derailing this thread; that was going to be my next question: Is there a similar divide between the growing upwardly-mobile, educated, upper-middle class AA blacks and those who are trapped in the cycle of poverty, etc? I know it exists ("acting white, etc") but being white, I don't hear it talked about openly among black people .... especially among black politicians, ministers, etc.
Right now that's not something that the community wants to air out in public like that.. its a sensitive thing to talk about publicly, but you can encounter it a lot on the web if you are in the right places. In time the media will catch on and add fuel to the fire, though. A couple of years ago there was some comments made by Bill Cosby that really got that flame burning and the temperature has been rising ever since. Even with the whole Trayvon Martin thing, there was some suprisingly fiery division among blacks there.
This is overblown but I have definitely experienced what is the subject of discussion. I don't admire Caribbean Blacks or African Blacks. They are different and they are other people just like other races. As a result, I don't give a flip about them just like other races of people. As a Black person, I disassociate myself from the fact I'm American. My mother just happened to crap me out of her vagina in this country. I disassociate myself from other races. I think it's best for people who aren't Black Americans to mind their own race's business.
One is a native of Jamaica who immigrated to the US as a child, grew up in NYC and now resides in Georgia but maintains a heavy Caribbean accent. The other isa native Georgian, a descendant of slaves who grew up in a small rural town and has a heavy Southern black accent.
The lady from Jamaica is almost certainly a descendant of slaves herself.
I don't know if this story is completely relevant, but I'll add one of my experiences with some African and AA friction.
One day I was talking with a colleague who moved here from Ghana when he started complaining about AA's having little to no motivation to improve themselves while they complained all the time about feeling oppressed. Though he relented to there being oppression, he said he couldn't understand how it was keeping them down so far when he was able to succeed despite being "blacker" and "more ethnic" than any AA he had ever met. Without really thinking about it, I told him that it probably had more to do with being an oppressed cultural minority than it being strictly skin related. When he asked me what I meant, I told him that you can see the exact same patterns in rural Appalachia. Appalachia is probably the whitest part of America, but it is also largely considered the poorest and most exploited due to generations of abuse from the mining industry. He asked me to explain to him the "King Coal" and "King Cotton" issues which have been so ingrained in my understanding of the world that I had taken for granted the likelihood that most people probably don't know too much about these things even within America. So I compared and contrasted the circumstances of sharecroppers and miners, who were both virtually enslaved laborers, then broke down the similar cultural devastation it inflicted on the populations which can still be seen today. I told him that a lot of people say "things have changed since the 60's, but it wasn't like the 60's had the bar set too high to begin with." Both populations still suffer from extreme housing discrimination, job discrimination, are belittled frequently in the media, suffer from disproportionate health issues since businesses dump pollutants into their communities, their cultural accents are treated as evidence of ignorance or immorality--Just think of how Rachel Jeantel's manner of speaking was picked apart after her testimony and Hunger Games fans' backlash when they found out the author pictured the main character with an Appalachian accent--police are far more likely to harass them than other segments of society, they're discriminated against in loan markets which diminishes their capacity for entrepreneurship, and both come from historical backgrounds of oppression where routes to success have been systematically closed for generations by industries which profited from their forced dependency. Even when they work hard to improve themselves, they usually don't have a strong background of people who have been through college or have trail blazed the way for them.
I told him that I couldn't personally speak for the cultural trauma of AA's, but I told him that my family comes from the Appalachians and I have seen as well as experienced the struggles of trying to overcome the extreme gaps between myself and mainstream whites whose ancestors weren't subject to modern slavery in America the way mine were. I told him that overcoming the low expectations of peers as well as instructors who hear your accent and assume you are "unteachable" or not worth their time is not easy. Even though I am seen as white, I am still disadvantaged in ways mainstream whites have trouble comprehending and so they assume that I must be "lazy, ignorant, unmotivated, inbred, etc." Though our skin is the same, our circumstances are completely different.
I realized I had been ranting a bit, and was embarrassed, so I tried to sum my point up for him by saying: "Skin color and race is important to take into account when considering issues of discrimination, but it doesn't end there. White supremacy doesn't impact all people of color in the same way just as white privilege doesn't impact all white people the same way. There are hidden minorities within both. So, I think your observations lack some context because it assumes that just because you're both black that discrimination impacts you in the same way as it does them." He told me that he hadn't thought of it that way and he never considered the issue past their shared race. I simply responded that I've come to the general conclusion that "Race plays a role in everything, but the trick is figuring out what other variables are at play and what role race plays in conjunction with those other variables."
... That's not to say I think discrimination is an "excuse" for oppressed people who have become complacent with low achievement, but it is a very real problem which realistically explains current inequalities. I believe everyone should try to better understand these things because we can't help one another if we don't take time to appreciate where others are coming from. I have noticed that many people are frequently so caught up in their own feelings of oppression that they fail to recognize the different nuances of what others have been through, and dismiss said differences as being inconsequential compared to what they believe they have endured. That goes both ways, too. I grow wary of people who say that so-and-so shouldn't complain because they don't have it as bad as someone else, but that logic is equally problematic. The assertion that one form of oppression is "worse" than the other also has the unfortunate implication that one form of oppression is "more acceptable" than the other. I am uncomfortable with the belief that any form of oppression is acceptable on any level. Therefore, I think it is very important to recognize the differences in how discrimination and oppression affects various types of people without trying to diminish or belittle the experiences of any group.
I'm making a general statement here because I strongly feel that this is not restricted to AA-African tensions, or even black-black tensions, but is relevant to all interactions between all people who have different heritages.
I disassociate myself from other races. I think it's best for people who aren't Black Americans to mind their own race's business.
It's fine for you to associate or disassociate as you please. But race is every American's business, and what blacks do or don't, as a group, do is my business.
For more than two years now, my father's health has required the employ of two home-health CNAs, both of them black women (no surprise). One is a native of Jamaica who immigrated to the US as a child, grew up in NYC and now resides in Georgia but maintains a heavy Caribbean accent. The other is a native Georgian, a descendant of slaves who grew up in a small rural town and has a heavy Southern black accent.
These two women HATE each other! When alone, they openly criticize each other ... mostly because of where each is from!
ONE: "She's a bossy island b**** who thinks she's better than everybody else!"
TWO: "She's an uneducated lazy n***** who can't even speak proper English!"
For the record, I adore each of these women ... but the catfighting has become a real concern in our family, which was completely unaware of this apparent HUGE distaste that "native" black people who descended from slaves and immigrant black people have for each other in this country.
But it goes even further: On Saturday, I was at Lowe's with my aunt shopping in the lawn and garden section when we struck up a conversation with a black woman with a VERY heavy accent who told us she was from Jamaica but had lived in NYC for 40 years until recently moving to Georgia. Then, completely unprovoked and out of the blue, she stated (and I quote): "These blacks in America are bad, they just keep going down down down and don't want to work hard. This is a country of opportunity there is no excuse to live like this!"
My aunt and I looked at each other, said something like "Have a nice day!" and just walked away ... in shock. I immediately thought, "What if that had been a white person saying that?" OH MY GOD!
Anyway, the reason for this post is NOT to ask advice for keeping my dad's two caregivers at bay (they work different shifts and seldom see each other). I'm just really curious how commonplace this is around the country, if it's pretty widely known and what other's experiences might be?
It seems rather ironic that in a nation where everybody always seems to obsess about white-on-black racism, the most open racism I hear expressed in MY south is BLACK ON BLACK!
There is discrimination or friction between actual Black Americans (blacks whose lineage traces back through slavery roots) and African/Caribbean Americans (blacks whose roots are not thru slavery but more from immigration and are usually 1st or 2nd (maybe 3rd) generation Americans).
I first experienced this during my first year of undergrad when many of the 'black' students were of African or Caribbean descent (not the majority but many). African and Caribbeans were keen on distinguishing themselves from 'black' people; not all were militant about it, but it was certainly made apparent. At first I was a little taken aback if not a little shocked. i had never experienced anything like that before. Just to give a little background: i was the first in my family to attend college and it was a very good college (considered the public Ivy when I attended). i had only been around other Black Americans for the most part (as far as blacks are concerned) and had never made the distinction between black vs African or Caribbean. So the adjustment was a little uncomfortable at first, but honestly there is a distinction and i now have no problem recognizing it.
What i do have a problem with is the often patronizing and elitist attitude many Africans and Caribbeans tend to have regarding Black Americans; as demonstrated in your example. these people come here and take advantage of the hard fought legacy of civil rights and greater access to opportunity that so many Black Americans paid the price for; yet many deride and castigate Black Americans (not all but many do)! I have some very close friends that are African or Caribbean and they have honestly told me that they were introduced to some very negative stereotypes of Black Americans in their native countries and those portrayals are sometimes affirmed by some Black Americans that they encounter. Of course that is a poor excuse for racism; the same rationale could be applied to any group to justify hate or prejudice.
i think most of this has to do with the attitude many immigrants who have become successful tend to have in this country. Often i hear, 'well if i came here and made it then why can't natives'. It’s a ridiculous assertion and is completely devoid of context. First off, most immigrants who come here often have the means to do so in their home nations, and/or they tend to be the very entrepreneurial types who are very aggressive risk takers. Many, certainly not all, become successful due in part to taking advantage of assistance programs from social services to gov small business loans. This paradigm is exaggerated when black immigrants compare themselves to black natives because they may look the same on the outside, while not taking into account the legacy of discrimination and oppression Black Americans have had to deal with and the resulting lasting effects.
Anyway, racism is a very complicated issue and its not just white on black or majority vs minority. Intra-racism certainly occurs as well. However, neither phenomenon absolves the other, and I hope the OP wasn’t trying to do so in their mind, no matter the amount of perceived irony…
There has always been some friction between blacks with roots in the South and those with roots in the Caibbean here in New York and I think it exists to some degree everywhere. But my experience is that much of it derived from the differences between voluntary immigrants, who came here with the expectation of upward mobility, and those whose forebears were slaves, and have a deeper, longer hostility toward the system. And that difference is amplified by the cultural differences of colonialism vs slavery. So the West Indians have been somewhat more upwardly mobile, a bit more educated, tend more to entrepreneurship, more likely to be homeowners, etc
But ultimately we all know that we face the same racial hurdles here and have to fight the same battles. IMO a lot of the friction between the two groups has recded in recent generations, and the type of distaste your aunts caregivers gave is a lit less than what you might have seen 50 years ago.
Very well put
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
