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And if you Informed Consent worked hard all your life yet got laid off and couldn't buy health insurance anywhere because of a minor pre-existing condition and you get robbed/attacked/carjacked/raped/etc. your party would consider you a leech and let you die without health care.
Not necessary. I wouldn't be so stupid as to not have saved/invested enough to provide for my future needs.
Quote:
Do you have a right to health after a violent robbery/attack/rape that you do not choose, or is it a privilege?
Everyone has access to health care. You're presenting a bogus argument.
Well.. in Europe and the rest of the FREE WORLD .. there is no such thing as taking 12 years to pay off the debt of what coverage didn't cover..
As already pointed out numerous times, they have HIGHLY REGRESSIVE tax systems to PAY for exactly what you want. Work to transition the U.S. away from progressive taxes to the highly regressive tax systems the rest of the free world has, and you'll be closer to your goal of making what you want happen.
Location: Just transplanted to FL from the N GA mountains
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmking
Without the "spreading the wealth is garbage" business, most folks would still be enslaved in one form or the other--slavery, serfs, indentured servitude or just plain tossed to the curb to starve while a few families out of millions prospered.
I find it ironic that you pull this out, when all the ACA has done has turned more of us into becoming those for which you supposedly fight. So now I'm indentured to not only the federal government (gotta keep paying more and more taxes you know), plus my share of the debt.... but now I'm indentured to other citizens just so I can pay their insurance...
Once again... access to health care is a right. Insurance is not!
Well.. in Europe and the rest of the FREE WORLD .. there is no such thing as taking 12 years to pay off the debt of what coverage didn't cover..
THAT IS THE POINT.... indeed the ACA falls far short of this..
THe rest of the world sees it as a right.. and they don't have to go through the garbage we do when they get sick...
Your story is an argument FOR a one payer system...
Oh.. and they have a higher life expectancy than we do in the U.S... Our healthcare system.. is ranked 46th in the world.. below Iran and just above Serbia.
Reformers want to reduce the state's role in health-care delivery and introduce a competitive element. Those against change are adamant that a health-care system without state involvement is health care without a heart. Good for the rich, calamitous for the poor. It is an issue heavily clouded by emotion. But many feel that without innovation, crumbling state-backed systems will collapse as they struggle to cope with aging populations, soaring overheads and, more recently, mounting budget deficits.
The statistics paint a bleak picture. According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, the European Union will see an increase in health expenditure of 350% by 2050, whereas at the same time the economy is only set to expand by 180%.
The concept of free, state-run health care has been enshrined in Europe for generations. Europeans have built health systems so inclusive that even illegal immigrants are entitled to free treatment beyond just emergency care. Europeans have some of the world's best hospitals, and have made great strides in fighting problems like obesity and heart disease.
But the system is far from perfect.
In Britain, France, Switzerland and elsewhere, public health systems have become political punching bags for opposition parties, costs have skyrocketed and in some cases, patients have needlessly suffered and died.
"I would warn Americans that once the government gets its nose into health care, it's hard to stop the dangerous effects later," said Valentin Petkantchin, of the Institut Economique Molinari in France. He said many private providers have been pushed out, forcing a dependence on an overstretched public system.
Not necessary. I wouldn't be so stupid as to not have saved/invested enough to provide for my future needs.
Everyone has access to health care. You're presenting a bogus argument.
So let's say InformedConsent you are 27 years old, just graduated and interviewing for jobs and looking forward to a life of hard work, and get violently attacked/robbed/raped after your first job interview, and someone named InCo on this board posts that you are stupid enough as to not have saved/invested enough for your own future needs, what do you say to InCo? If you are 27 years old, have no student loan debt because you worked hard through school and graduated with honors but have only $1,000 in the bank, and you get seriously injured from an attack not of your choosing, should you be left in the gutter by InCo who considers you a leech, or should you have a right to get back to health paid for by fellow humans who think you're human with potential?
IF there were enough charity and enough "free" clinics.. we wouldn't have a crappy healthcare system we have.
We already know charity is not enough to fill in the gaps.
I'll never change your opinion, you'll never change mine. This again goes back to the original post.. the fundamental difference between the two sides is that one believes it to be a right, the other doesn't.
As long as you got yours your good right? Until you're not. The thing of it is, it's no longer poor who are not able to access healthcare. It's working middle class citizens who are finding that they can't.. and are loosing everything they have worked for when an illness befalls them or a loved one.
So, while you may think you have yours.. you really don't. None of us do. WE all have to worry about whether a bout of cancer is going to wipe out everything we worked so hard to make.......
The rest of the free world has figured this out....
The simplest test to determine is something is a right is whether or not it requires that someone else must give up something of theirs, or provide a service to you, in order for you to acquire that right.
If, in order for you to obtain your right, you must infringe on their rights of another person, require them to give up some of their property, or require them to perform some service, in order for you to obtain your right… then it is not a right.
There is a difference between a right and a need. You have no right to housing, a car, or even medical care, but you have a right to pursue those needs.
Location: Just transplanted to FL from the N GA mountains
3,997 posts, read 4,142,915 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fumbling
So let's say InformedConsent you are 27 years old, just graduated and interviewing for jobs and looking forward to a life of hard work, and get violently attacked/robbed/raped after your first job interview, and someone named InCo on this board posts that you are stupid enough as to not have saved/invested enough for your own future needs, what do you say to InCo? If you are 27 years old, have no student loan debt because you worked hard through school and graduated with honors but have only $1,000 in the bank, and you get seriously injured from an attack not of your choosing, should you be left in the gutter by InCo who considers you a leech, or should you have a right to get back to health paid for by fellow humans who think you're human with potential?
This cracks me up... If I'd have had a college degree and 1000.00 in the bank at 27, I'd would have thought I was RICH! And I still wouldn't have EXPECTED some one else to pay for me....
Did us folks who are middle-aged (or old depending on your outlook).. just skip over our mid-20's?
So let's say InformedConsent you are 27 years old, just graduated
At 27? WTF?!? My nieces just recently graduated. One with a top ten engineering school degree and an MBA degree at 23 (some of the course work done concurrently). The other from a Public Ivy (look it up: Consider a Public Ivy School if You Want a Strong, Affordable Education - My Money (usnews.com)) with a Bachelor of Science degree AND a non-major concentration certificate at age 21. BOTH subsequently easily landed well-paying full-time jobs.
People who wisely acquire a valuable education, acquire marketable skills, and work hard/smart have no problems. Those who don't, make excuses and whine and complain about what they don't have...
Location: Just transplanted to FL from the N GA mountains
3,997 posts, read 4,142,915 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent
At 27?
People who wisely acquire a valuable education, acquire marketable skills, and work hard/smart have no problems. Those who don't, make excuses and whine and complain about what they don't have...
My 28-year-old just called Mom (me) on Sunday. Got his first job. And while the pay is so-so (we keep hearing about all the STEM opportunities but they are traditionally lower pay starting out in his field).. but I digress... The point is... he hasn't even graduated yet! Won't get the doctorate in hand for about six more weeks... And ironically... he sent out 1.. yes only one CV, and one interview and got the job.
Valuable education, marketable skills... hard word! You got that right Informed!
I find it ironic that you pull this out, when all the ACA has done has turned more of us into becoming those for which you supposedly fight. So now I'm indentured to not only the federal government (gotta keep paying more and more taxes you know), plus my share of the debt.... but now I'm indentured to other citizens just so I can pay their insurance...
Once again... access to health care is a right. Insurance is not!
Exactly. That is why it needs to change, but not to what it was. Both lead to the same outcome.
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My 28-year-old just called Mom (me) on Sunday. Got his first job. And while the pay is so-so (we keep hearing about all the STEM opportunities but they are traditionally lower pay starting out in his field).. but I digress... The point is... he hasn't even graduated yet! Won't get the doctorate in hand for about six more weeks... And ironically... he sent out 1.. yes only one CV, and one interview and got the job. 