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Except the Russian identifying Ukrainians won the election & were in charge of the Government until an illegal coup d'tat was launched. Now the US wants to put a NeoNazi coalition in charge there (you can't make this stuff up). Again, in a nutshell we supported the illegal overthrow of the Democratically elected Government & want to replace them with US friendly NeoNazis.
Not quite the same as our relationship with Mexico.
Except the Russian identifying Ukrainians won the election & were in charge of the Government until an illegal coup d'tat was launched. Now the US wants to put a NeoNazi coalition in charge there (you can't make this stuff up). Again, in a nutshell we supported the illegal overthrow of the Democratically elected Government & want to replace them with US friendly NeoNazis.
Not quite the same as our relationship with Mexico.
All the while denying the right of people in the east to exercise their right to self-determination.
Uh; not too far back Stalin had millions of Ukrainians killed so they were just trying to even the score less than 10 years later so there's lots of bad history there.
Agreed and word is both Russians and Ukraine people are "Slavs" and they usually play well together, kinda like people from Norway and Sweden with each other. IMHO Russia WOULD back down real fast if faced down.
They've got some bad history at this point. They are two very separate ethnic groups apparently. The French and the Germans are both descendents of mostly Goths, but historically they definitely don't get along very well. And per your example, the people of Denmark are historically despised by the Swedes and Norwegians, but they're all the same ethnicity.
I know that in the history of the Soviet Union, the Ukrainian peoples were a thorn in the side of the government. Ukraine continued to resist the Bolsheviks longer than anyone. Because he considered them a threat and enemies to the state, Stalin made the Holodomor -- a man-made famine -- happen. About 8.5 million people starved to death, the vast majority of them were Ukrainian.
This leads directly into the Ukrainians initially welcoming the forces of Nazi Germany as liberators. Many even joined with the Germans to fight against Stalin. A lot more probably would have joined up if Hitler's Einsatzgruppen death squads hadn't shown up and started massacring people. I don't know the numbers for it, but I know that Stalin killed a lot of Ukrainians after WW2.
In reality, all anti-Ukrainian sentiments ends up resulting in ethnic Russians slaughtering ethnic Ukrainians.
So I know that there is a lot of bad feelings between Russians and Ukrainians from the Soviet era. I believe that general discord between them predates the USSR, going back several centuries, but I don't really understand why.
Should Ukraine deport the ethnic Russians? I think the ethnic Russians should deport Ukraine - the land belongs to the people, the people have the right of self-determination in governance, and ethnic Russians have resided there long before Ukraine was a sovereign country. The government is the servant of the people; the people are not the servant of the government.
Besides, either course would come to the same outcome, a predominately Ukrainian state that is more pro-European than pro-Russian, except that one outcome requires violence, war, and violation of liberties, whereas the other outcome requires no bloodshed or consternation, since it's exactly what the ethnic Russians want. It would also serve the interests of the regime in Kiev, since they wouldn't face as much resistance to pursuing relations with the EU and putting down other ethnicities and languages, because the new Ukraine would be predominately Ukrainian-speaking.
Alternatively, why not adopt the idea of a federal Ukraine? If the U.S., Russia, Germany, Austria, and Switzerland can be federations, why can't Ukraine? It would satisfy the ethnic Russians, and with 46 million people it's certainly big enough for federalization; of the 27 current federations, 18 are less populous than Ukraine.
This leads directly into the Ukrainians initially welcoming the forces of Nazi Germany as liberators. Many even joined with the Germans to fight against Stalin. A lot more probably would have joined up if Hitler's Einsatzgruppen death squads hadn't shown up and started massacring people
Wrong.
Ukrainians killed Jews and Poles living in majority-Ukrainian territory whenever they got the opportunity. WWI was a prime example.
But their golden opportunity arrived when Hitler invaded. They formed their own SS divisions. Babi Yar was a Ukrainian operation, as was most of the other holocaust by bullets in that area. In the Lvov area, what used to be called Galicia, they preferred rounding up Poles and Jews into barns and setting them alight. Sound familiar? Look up the Odessa crime a couple weeks ago. This murder-by-fire happened in WWI and WWII. No Stalin to blame for the former.
Look it up.
Last edited by Goinback2011; 05-14-2014 at 04:02 PM..
The UN has been useless from day one. Know what happens if the UN tries to do anything? Russia uses its veto power and nothing happens.
It'd be like asking a judge to sentence himself to prison time. Just ain't gonna happen.
The Russians are often joined by China which might want to do a few border revisions of its own. Like recover Taiwan, convince Vietnam, The Phillipines and Japan to see the ownership of the seas off China their way. From time to time the Chinese remind the Russians that the Czars of All the Russias stole 500,000 sq miles of Chinese territory in the Far East and until 1895 a place called Chosan or Korea was a part of Imperial China as was places like Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia . . Japan and France made off with these respectively.
Ukrainians killed Jews and Poles living in majority-Ukrainian territory whenever they got the opportunity. WWI was a prime example.
But their golden opportunity arrived when Hitler invaded. They formed their own SS divisions. Babi Yar was a Ukrainian operation, as was most of the other holocaust by bullets in that area. In the Lvov area, what used to be called Galicia, they preferred rounding up Poles and Jews into barns and setting them alight. Sound familiar? Look up the Odessa crime a couple weeks ago. This murder-by-fire happened in WWI and WWII. No Stalin to blame for the former.
Look it up.
Absolutely nothing you just said contradicts anything that I said in any way. The Ukraine got stomped on by Stalin and ethnic Russians were always the boot. The Ukraine didn't really want to be part of the USSR. They got massacred by Stalin in the 30's to the tune of 8.5 million dead Ukrainians. The Ukraine has absolutely no reason whatsoever to love Russia and ethnic Russians.
I'm not familiar with the Ukraine doing a ton of Polish and Jewish ethnic cleansing, but especially in the case of the Jews it's not too surprising. Every nation in Europe was more than happy to round up the Jews and hand them over to be slaughtered. People like to put the Jewish Holocaust all on Hitler and the Nazis but the whole of Europe played ball because they hated the Jews so much. The Jewish Holocaust happened because (with very few exceptions) everybody in Europe hated the Jews almost as much as the Nazis.
But all of that is ...
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