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Yes malamute is completely right. The problem in Ukraine is the ethnic Russians who hold Ukrainian citizenship, live in Ukraine, but are not loyal to Ukraine and are more loyal to Russia which is a foreign state. They do it for racial reasons because they put their Russian ethnicity before their Ukrainian citizenship. Its troubling when people focus so much on race and put it before nationality. This destabilizes nations.
And remember that the ethnic Russians who moved to Ukraine to colonize it during the Soviet days still only spoke Russian and associated with other ethnic Russians and were not interested in integrating with the Ukrainians, the native people of that region. People can argue how long ethnic Russians lived in Ukraine, but in the beginning the land belonged to the ethnic Ukrainian people and the Russians came later. Even when both Russia and Ukraine were in the USSR, the Russian newcomers should still have at least tried to respect the culture of the Ukrainians though this doesn't always happen (kinda like how when Californians move to Colorado and New Yorkers move south they keep their old ways and impose them on the natives).
The Ukrainians have a much stronger claim to Ukraine than these ethnic Russians do. Ukraine is the homeland of the Ukrainian people. Russia is the homeland of the Russian ethnicity. The Russian culture began in the areas around Moscow and St. Petersburg the fact that its spread so far only shows the success of Russian and Soviet imperialism. Russia has never been criticized for its colonialist, imperialist, and expansionist history the way the US, Britain, Spain, France, the Netherlands and Portugal have been criticized for the colonial empires and the Indian wars. The ethnic Russians in Ukraine should be loyal to their country (which is Ukraine not Russia) or they should go back to their ancestral home of Russia if they feel so Russian. It may also be fair to compare the ethnic Russian populations in the former Soviet republics to the Afrikaners in South Africa who are a powerful minority.
Please just stop, you know absolutely nothing about the history of that area. Just the fact you dismiss the entire Kievian Rus period shows your severe lack of knowledge, along with your general obtuse nature to any fact anyone posts here.
In addition, Ukraine has more people in it than just Ukrainians, the borders of Ukraine were drawn by Soviet leaders, they are not in any way reflected of the ethnic distribution of ethnic Ukrainians; Ukraine as a country has many ethnic groups, many of which predate anything to do with Ukraine as an ethnicity. And again, the issue now has nothing to do with ethnic groups.
Uh; not too far back Stalin had millions of Ukrainians killed so they were just trying to even the score less than 10 years later so there's lots of bad history there.
I know that in the history of the Soviet Union, the Ukrainian peoples were a thorn in the side of the government. Ukraine continued to resist the Bolsheviks longer than anyone. Because he considered them a threat and enemies to the state, Stalin made the Holodomor -- a man-made famine -- happen. About 8.5 million people starved to death, the vast majority of them were Ukrainian.
Many groups were a thorn on the side of the gov, many Ukrainians also sided with the Soviets. The Cossacks were the substantial group and threat that held out the longest, that is why the Soviets brutally wiped them out. Oh yes, the Ukrainians assisted in the extermination of the Cossacks as well.
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Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
This leads directly into the Ukrainians initially welcoming the forces of Nazi Germany as liberators. Many even joined with the Germans to fight against Stalin. A lot more probably would have joined up if Hitler's Einsatzgruppen death squads hadn't shown up and started massacring people. I don't know the numbers for it, but I know that Stalin killed a lot of Ukrainians after WW2.
A small but sizable minority of Ukrainains welcomed the Nazis, msot were against the Nazis. The Nazi supporters also supported the Nazis in other areas besides ousting Soviet power. But this does not matter, it is one thing to side with the devil in hopes of casting off another devil, but it is quite another to celebrate this decades later, and even create Swastika style symbols as a mark of your group.
The US sided with the Soviets to defeat Hitler, but the US did not after go and celebrate the Soviets and adapt their lingo and symbols.
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Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
In reality, all anti-Ukrainian sentiments ends up resulting in ethnic Russians slaughtering ethnic Ukrainians.
So I know that there is a lot of bad feelings between Russians and Ukrainians from the Soviet era. I believe that general discord between them predates the USSR, going back several centuries, but I don't really understand why.
There are plenty of videos showing Ukrainian troops shooting unarmed people in the east, and again, this has nothing to do with ethnicity; this is an economic issue. There are numerous families that are a mix of Ukrainian and Russian, and I doubt most people in the world cannot even tell the two ethnic groups apart in anything they do. And yes, the general discord predates the USSR, but the Ukrainians generally got into with the Cossacks, Tatars, Poles, and other groups. The Poles and Ukrainians have had numerous conflicts with each other.
Should Ukraine deport the ethnic Russians? I think the ethnic Russians should deport Ukraine - the land belongs to the people, the people have the right of self-determination in governance, and ethnic Russians have resided there long before Ukraine was a sovereign country. The government is the servant of the people; the people are not the servant of the government.
Besides, either course would come to the same outcome, a predominately Ukrainian state that is more pro-European than pro-Russian, except that one outcome requires violence, war, and violation of liberties, whereas the other outcome requires no bloodshed or consternation, since it's exactly what the ethnic Russians want. It would also serve the interests of the regime in Kiev, since they wouldn't face as much resistance to pursuing relations with the EU and putting down other ethnicities and languages, because the new Ukraine would be predominately Ukrainian-speaking.
Alternatively, why not adopt the idea of a federal Ukraine? If the U.S., Russia, Germany, Austria, and Switzerland can be federations, why can't Ukraine? It would satisfy the ethnic Russians, and with 46 million people it's certainly big enough for federalization; of the 27 current federations, 18 are less populous than Ukraine.
The West does not want a federalized Ukraine, the West will go through all means to keep this from happening. The West would be happy with an oppressive dictator in charge that favors the West. The West sure as heck is not a fan of democracy there, after all, the West fully supported the overthrow of a fairly elected president.
I'm surprised there is still so much Russian chauvinism and colonialism on these boards. Its a lie that Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Belarus, Georgia, Armenia, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan have "always" been part of Russia. They were part of the Soviet Union but were never part of Russia. Under y'alls mentality you would say India should still be British and that Spain should still belong to the Muslims because they had invaded and colonized it before.
Ukrainians, Kazaks, Tajiks, Uzbeks and Turkmens are all individual ethnicities, languages, and cultures different than the Russian ethnicity and culture. It seems many of you liberals wish the USSR never split up and wish Moscow still ruled over the former republics. This will not change the fact that Ukrainians were in Ukraine before Russians were and the Ukrainian ethnicity has a greater claim to the land. If ethnic Russians want to live in Ukraine, they should consider themselves Ukrainians, love Ukraine as their country and put the interests of Ukraine before the interests of their racial brethren in the now foreign nation of Russia. If you liberals support the ethnic Russians here, it makes perfect sense that you support illegal immigration and the non-assimilation of immigrants in the West.
I'm surprised there is still so much Russian chauvinism and colonialism on these boards.
It is actually the presenting of facts, in which you are obtuse to.
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Originally Posted by Tom Lennox 70
Its a lie that Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Belarus, Georgia, Armenia, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan have "always" been part of Russia.
They were part of the Russian Empire, and countries like Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Armenia, Belarus, etc were never an independent country except after the Soviet collapse. A few like Ukraine had a brief independence during the Russian civil war (look at the Ukrainian borders, extreme west Ukraine declared independence) and Armenia for a couple of years, but that is it. Those countries never had any extended period of independence or fixed borders until the USSR created them as republics, and the USSR collapsed.
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Originally Posted by Tom Lennox 70
They were part of the Soviet Union but were never part of Russia. Under y'alls mentality you would say India should still be British and that Spain should still belong to the Muslims because they had invaded and colonized it before.
This is what I do not understand; why in the world are you purposely refuting facts that anyone and their brother can look for on the Internet? These territories were part of the Russian Empire, most of the USSR was derived from the Russian Empire. The concept of statehood was brought by the Soviets through way of creating republics (example the Kyrgyzs, who had no concept of borders and modern government), and the borders of these countries were created by Soviet leaders.
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Originally Posted by Tom Lennox 70
Ukrainians, Kazaks, Tajiks, Uzbeks and Turkmens are all individual ethnicities, languages, and cultures different than the Russian ethnicity and culture.
And? They were still part of the Russian Empire, reasons of which are many. Armenia for example was taken during WW1 from the Ottoman Empire, Armenia never existed as a country until the Russia Revolution, then the Soviets took the territory back and drew the borders for it.
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Originally Posted by Tom Lennox 70
It seems many of you liberals wish the USSR never split up and wish Moscow still ruled over the former republics.
Not at all, merely showing you facts has nothing to do with wishing the USSR stayed together. But when it did break apart, these border issues should have been solved then.
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Originally Posted by Tom Lennox 70
This will not change the fact that Ukrainians were in Ukraine before Russians were and the Ukrainian ethnicity has a greater claim to the land.
DO you even realize where Russians and Ukrainians come from? They, in culture, people, and language, derive from the same source; ever hear of Kievian Rus? Your history knowledge is horrible in this area.
Now, if there is one thing you need to realize, it is this; UKRAINIAN BORDERS WERE CREATED BY SOVIET LEADERS, FOR THE PURPOSE OF THE USSR.
There was no Ukrainian state, nothing; it has always and forever been the Russian Empire, with parts of it being fought over for the last 1000 years (like Lviv belonging to Galicia, Crimea to the Ottomans).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Lennox 70
If ethnic Russians want to live in Ukraine, they should consider themselves Ukrainians, love Ukraine as their country and put the interests of Ukraine before the interests of their racial brethren in the now foreign nation of Russia.
You do realize this is not an ethnic issue? It has been stated before but you purposely ignore it. This is an economic issue, basically the productive east subsidizing the unproductive west, but the west overthrowing the elected president the east voted for.
Ethnic Russians cannot ever be ethnic Ukrainians, where you get someone can switch their ethnicity? They can be Ukrainians by nationality, but never by ethnicity. Also, again, the Russians there have been there longer than Ukraine has existed.
You obviously are obtuse to even how the borders of Ukraine became as they are; Soviet leaders included east Ukraine into the Ukrainian SSR to give the SSR a boost in economic power, because the historic center of Ukrainian territory, the west, had no economy other than farming, and still down not to this day. This is the equivalent of the US gov giving New Jersey New York City to boost the NJ economy, and expecting people in NYC to consider themselves New Jersyers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Lennox 70
If you liberals support the ethnic Russians here, it makes perfect sense that you support illegal immigration and the non-assimilation of immigrants in the West.
Those Russians are not immigrants, many of them have families that go back generations in the area. Also, you seem to think in Ukraine there are only Ukrainians? Ignorance is bliss I guess for you; Ukraine as a territory has numerous people who have roots going back hundreds of years; Cossacks, Tatars, Romanians, Polish, Russians, etc; you are way too fixated on the country name of "Ukraine"; that is just the name of the country, not who is all in it or has been in it. Heck, the country got its name from who? That is right, the USSR, who got it from the Russia Empire, which is derived from the root of both languages in Old Slavic.
Goodness, please read some history; have you ever even been there before? Ever even taken interest in the place until now? Speak the language, lived the culture?
Dear Americans , before you write something in the spirit of " aversion to come in large numbers Russian " at least ask these Russian , how long they live there ? There graves of their grandfathers and grandgrandgrandfathers. Cities are now fighting for the people's militia southwest based Russian Empress Catherine , these Russian always lived there , millions of them ! Before 1917 no Ukraine did not exist ! It has always been a land of Russian , I do not see that the Americans 300 years ago were highly loyal to the Native American Indians , how many millions have been exterminated ?
The Obamabots here would support genocide if Obama told them to.
And now that there is civil war in Ukraine and the government is using military aircraft and artillery against citizens, where are the front page media reports?!
And now that there is civil war in Ukraine and the government is using military aircraft and artillery against citizens, where are the front page media reports?!
Why isn't Obama telling the Ukrainian government to stop the violence like he did back in March?
Oh yeah, he likes THIS violence.
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