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You final argument is as ignorant as the poor mannered youth who made you feel bad 50+ years ago, because nobody is calling you a Redskin .... you are whining about what someone else is calling THEMSELVES!!! And that really is ignorant.
Your experience as a youngster is deplorable and unfortunate. But it was the ignorant behavior that was the offense, and not the term "Redskin". It could have been any word used, and poorly raised kids have never had a problem finding mean spirited ways and words to harass other children. What are we to do to eliminate that? Ban any word that can be used in a negative context? That would require a vast reduction in the English language, leaving us eventually to grunts and groans to communicate like cavemen.
You see, this is political correctness run amuck, as this type of thinking ... which is really flawed ... shows up now even on boards like this, where words are censored, and prevent communicating points. For example, in england, they use a slang term for cigarette that starts with an F, ends in a G, with an A in the middle ... and how ridiculous is it that I can't even type the damned word without it being converted to ***.?
And you said it yourself ... the origin of the term was not a slur, meaning that the term itself is a benign term that at some point was adopted and used in a negative manner, again meaning that it is the intent of the speaker and their intention provides the meaning and not the words used.
Common sense also would immediately conclude that since the Washington Redskins adopted the name for themselves, they obviously are using the term correctly and in a positive context, and with it's original meaning of a warrior prepared for battle.
Furthermore, it has been my observation that it is a very racist mentality that sees racism where it doesn't even exist.
I have always made an effort to respond to any post directed at me, whether positive or negative.
Ironically, at 7:31AM on June 30th, the exact time you posted this attack on me personally, calling me an ignorant whiner because I've attempted to provide the American Indian side of the "Redskin" argument, I was hooked up to dual IVs, Dual Arterial monitor probes and dual shunt hoses, with a shaved side of my head. I was awaiting imminent, extremely high risk brain surgery, on a surgical gurney at the regional VA Hospital. Within 15 minutes of your post, I was under the knife and didn't return to reality until 7 hours later. I never knew I had so many family and friends waiting for me on this side of this reality.
I never knew I had so many complete strangers who so totally misunderstand, misinterpret and deliberately use my postings to further an agenda that is exactly 180 degrees from mine.
At first glance I'm actually appalled at the completely false rationalizations you concluded from my all too revealing post. I should have known that relating real time experiences of my mother and my youth would be taken and used as the very fodder to demean and belittle me.
You've taught me a hard lesson.
I'm not fit at the moment to respond to your post as the morphine I'm taking at regular intervals tends to cloud my thoughts and judgement.
Rest assured, when I recover in about two weeks to ten days I will be full of PI$$ and Vinegar and your's will be one of the first posts to be addressed.
Here comes my angel now. I can already tell she is pleased that I'm doing something besides staring out the window.
When she asks, I shall tell her my pain level is between 7.5 and 8 and she will open up the little blue gate in the IV and a warm soothing blanket will shortly cover my being.
For now, I return to dreamland.
Carry on with your destruction of all that is progressive and compassionate.
Thank god for spell check.
This post was edited by my son for syntax and content.
Location: Subconscious Syncope, USA (Northeastern US)
2,365 posts, read 2,149,295 times
Reputation: 3814
Quote:
Originally Posted by T-310
I have done a bit of research. The term redskin first appeared in the 17th century and was referred to the vermillion pigment smeared on faces and bodies of some eastern US tribes. This it had thee among of ferocious warriors. Hardly disrespectful at all. But let's compare terms. Reid gleefully announces that the team will have to change its name asost liberals self righteously assert.
Consider then the racist term NAACP with the racist word "colored". Or UNCF with the racist word "negro".
Let's see what the PC police have to say about that.
Redskin, like many other words, is offencive in the context in which it used.
The native community appears to be split on such things as ball teams, and products being named for a native-american or some part of their culture.
Ive had the opportunity to meet a Coalville tribal dancer (Washington State) on the East Coast PowWow Trail. At cooler weathered events, he always had a beautiful Washington Redskins Jacket on. I guess the idea of representing a professional american football team wasnt offencive to him. I dont recall ever seeing anyone give him a hard time about the jacket either, and we were at many of the same events.
The Eastern Band of Cherokee make all the novelty items for the Atlanta Braves. Tomahawk chop stuff, etc. Then Chief Ed Taylor was on TV as I recall to discuss this same topic, saying, "we are laughing all the way to the bank."
On the other hand, you had the Crazy Horse Malt Liquor scandal quite a while back. That was shameful, distasteful, and completely looking to just cash in on the famous name of a native american chief, while sullying that name, and the hardships of native american culture and history by associating it with an alcoholic beverage.
Explain the cannibalism among North American Indians. That's a historical fact. Hell, even one tribe along the Gulf coast would stake victims then strip off flesh from that still living person and consume it in front of that living victim.
Such a compassionate race, such a noble race.
And as for the 'owe'........to the victor goes the spoils. Just like the true savages practiced when they won any battle against their fellow race or the whites. They are humans and they react the same way other humans do in war. They are not in any way shape or form better than any other group of humans. To deify them is stupid.
Ask just about ANY person in America and they will claim a 'percentage' of Indian blood in their family history. Try it. Just ask. I claim none.
And as for my final name change preference:
Washington Oklahoma
if cannibalism happened, and you dont provide any proof of that, it is only to steal their enemies power and take it for their own. which means its not true cannibalism, since they dont eat the entire person, just a bit of their flesh.
and it is true that i have indian blood in me, the problem is that we cannot prove it as the records for my indian ancestor were lost in a courthouse fire many decades ago. and yes my cousin, my uncle, and my mother have all found circumstantial evidence in this regard as they are researching my families history.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little-Acorn
BTW, you know, don't you, that the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office (the ones who recently cancelled the Redskins' trademark on their name) has admitted that they never received a single complaint from any member of the public about the name, right?
Not a single complaint. From anyone. Including American Indians.
We all know that the Trademark Trial and Appeal Board of the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office has forced the NFL Washington Redskins into a “last stand†of sorts, cancelling their trademark on the basis that it is “disparaging to Native Americans.â€
The Patent Office indicated at the time that they were interpreting public interest, that of five people in particular, but leaving the impression that there were others. That impression, wherever it came from, turns out to be false.
While the team appeals the decision, the truth about the depth of that supposed offensive injury has entered the public domain. It is surprisingly shallow, to the point of being non-existent, nothing below the surface, barely enough to call a surface. No complaints were lodged, no endorsements in support, generally, there was a total lack of interest on the part of the general public.
It was an example of the proverbial solution in search a problem. It was a topic of discussion, an opportunity for Democrats to rescue the poor, put-upon litigants those who shared their pigmentation from the evils of a callous, bullying America.
actually the trademark office cannot revoke a trademark unless there is a complaint filed. and there was one in 2006. but the last time one was filed, the trademark office did revoke the trademark, it was overturned in federal court. i suspect it will be again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mohawkx
I have always made an effort to respond to any post directed at me, whether positive or negative.
Ironically, at 7:31AM on June 30th, the exact time you posted this attack on me personally, calling me an ignorant whiner because I've attempted to provide the American Indian side of the "Redskin" argument, I was hooked up to dual IVs, Dual Arterial monitor probes and dual shunt hoses, with a shaved side of my head. I was awaiting imminent, extremely high risk brain surgery, on a surgical gurney at the regional VA Hospital. Within 15 minutes of your post, I was under the knife and didn't return to reality until 7 hours later. I never knew I had so many family and friends waiting for me on this side of this reality.
I never knew I had so many complete strangers who so totally misunderstand, misinterpret and deliberately use my postings to further an agenda that is exactly 180 degrees from mine.
At first glance I'm actually appalled at the completely false rationalizations you concluded from my all too revealing post. I should have known that relating real time experiences of my mother and my youth would be taken and used as the very fodder to demean and belittle me.
You've taught me a hard lesson.
I'm not fit at the moment to respond to your post as the morphine I'm taking at regular intervals tends to cloud my thoughts and judgement.
Rest assured, when I recover in about two weeks to ten days I will be full of PI$$ and Vinegar and your's will be one of the first posts to be addressed.
Here comes my angel now. I can already tell she is pleased that I'm doing something besides staring out the window.
When she asks, I shall tell her my pain level is between 7.5 and 8 and she will open up the little blue gate in the IV and a warm soothing blanket will shortly cover my being.
For now, I return to dreamland.
Carry on with your destruction of all that is progressive and compassionate.
Thank god for spell check.
This post was edited by my son for syntax and content.
holy crap, are you trying to make yourself medically worse off than i am? its not a competition you know
get well soon my friend, i rather enjoy our debates.
I have always made an effort to respond to any post directed at me, whether positive or negative.
Ironically, at 7:31AM on June 30th, the exact time you posted this attack on me personally, calling me an ignorant whiner because I've attempted to provide the American Indian side of the "Redskin" argument, I was hooked up to dual IVs, Dual Arterial monitor probes and dual shunt hoses, with a shaved side of my head. I was awaiting imminent, extremely high risk brain surgery, on a surgical gurney at the regional VA Hospital. Within 15 minutes of your post, I was under the knife and didn't return to reality until 7 hours later. I never knew I had so many family and friends waiting for me on this side of this reality.
I never knew I had so many complete strangers who so totally misunderstand, misinterpret and deliberately use my postings to further an agenda that is exactly 180 degrees from mine.
At first glance I'm actually appalled at the completely false rationalizations you concluded from my all too revealing post. I should have known that relating real time experiences of my mother and my youth would be taken and used as the very fodder to demean and belittle me.
You've taught me a hard lesson.
I'm not fit at the moment to respond to your post as the morphine I'm taking at regular intervals tends to cloud my thoughts and judgement.
Rest assured, when I recover in about two weeks to ten days I will be full of PI$$ and Vinegar and your's will be one of the first posts to be addressed.
Here comes my angel now. I can already tell she is pleased that I'm doing something besides staring out the window.
When she asks, I shall tell her my pain level is between 7.5 and 8 and she will open up the little blue gate in the IV and a warm soothing blanket will shortly cover my being.
For now, I return to dreamland.
Carry on with your destruction of all that is progressive and compassionate.
Thank god for spell check.
This post was edited by my son for syntax and content.
My prayers are with you for a full and rapid recovery.
But just to clear up a misperception ... my intention is to expose not destroy. And that applies to the attitude of ignorance demonstrated by some who insist on being offended when it's obvious no offense was intended. For those so inclined, the onus is on them, and not the rest of the world to change, because we can't stop you from being perpetually offended if that is your choice .... and it is as simple as that ... a choice. You could just as easily choose not to be offended by the name of a football team. It's rather childish given all of the more significant matters facing our society today for which one's energy and efforts might be better directed.
Perhaps you believe being extremely thin skinned and easily offended is "progressive", and that is something we can agree on.
Last edited by GuyNTexas; 07-07-2014 at 09:09 AM..
My prayers are with you for a full and rapid recovery.
But just to clear up a misperception ... my intention is to expose not destroy. And that applies to the attitude of ignorance demonstrated by some who insist on being offended when it's obvious no offense was intended. For those so inclined, the onus is on them, and not the rest of the world to change, because we can't stop you from being perpetually offended if that is your choice .... and it is as simple as that ... a choice. You could just as easily choose not to be offended by the name of a football team. It's rather childish given all of the more significant matters facing our society today for which one's energy and efforts might be better directed.
Perhaps you believe being extremely thin skinned and easily offended is "progressive", and that is something we can agree on.
Thank you for your prayers. Obviously they are working. I'm home, the meds work and I have limited function. At least the ability to peck away at a keyboard for a few hours before hitting the sack.
With all due respect, The flaw I see in your argument is that you seem to ascribe the distaste for the Redskin handle as confined to a very few, thin skinned Native Americans. It is easy to deflate one's argument in a debate by marginalizing the opposition to just a few outliers.
The other end of your argument is that there are various other challenges facing the Indian Nations and American society that have a much higher priority than the matter of a team name.
I'll dismiss that offhand by saying that we Native Americans have become very good at multi-tasking and can chew gum, walk and listen to an Ipod at the same time, among other things.
My very next thought on the matter is "Why is it so important for you to want to keep the offensive handle? What will you lose if you change it? We, on the other hand, will gain a measure of our cultural and racial respect back."
As for being the lone, thin skinned Redman who cries out for a name change to the Washington Football team, I will have to stand with the following organizations and tribal affiliates who also petition the court of public opinion for a name change.
National Congress of American Indians
Comprised of 562 separate tribes and authorized to speak for them.
The following tribes have officially endorsed a name change in addition to the blanket endoresment by the NCAI
Agua Caliente Band of Cahuilla Indians
Central Council Tlingit and Haida Tribes of Alaska
Chickasaw Nation
Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma
Coeur D'Alene Tribe
Confederated Tribes of the Siletz Indians
Cow Creek Band of Umpqua Tribe of Indians
Forest County Potawatomi Community
Fort McDowell Yavapai Nation
Ho-Chunk Nation
Jamestown S'Klallam Tribe
Little Traverse Bay Bands of Odawa Indians
Lummi Nation
Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians
Morongo Band of Mission Indians
Muckleshoot Indian Tribe
Oneida Tribe of Indians of Wisconsin
Pechanga Band of Luiseno Indians
Pokagon Band of Potawatomi Indians
Prairie Band of Potawatomi Nation
Prairie Island Tribal Council
Pueblo of Isleta
Redding Rancheria
Rincon Band of Luiseno Indians
San Manuel Band of Mission Indians
Santo Domingo Tribe
Seminole Tribe of Florida
Seneca Nation
Shakopee Mdewakanton Sioux Community
Soboba Band of Luiseno Indians
Swinomish Tribe
The Tulalip Tribes
The Ute Indian Tribe
Tohono O'Odham Nation
Twenty-Nine Palms Band of Mission Indians
Ute Mountain Ute
Needless to say the Iroquois Confederacy(Also known as the Haudenosaunee), made up of the following tribes also endorse a name change
Mohawk
Oneida
Seneca
Onondaga
Cayuga
Tuscarora
Last but not least.......My Mother
I am no thin skinned progressive. I was a member of AIM (American Indian Movement), the militant arm of the National Congress of American Indians. I ran the coast guard blockade to resupply the Indians on Alcatraz Is. Back in my salad days.
We lost that battle against the Federal Government just as Cliven Bundy will lose his battle against them for the very same reasons.
I do understand your point of view. That is just a team name and nobody means any harm by it but in our eyes, it perpetrates a misbegotten stereotype of our entire race and we resent it. Our resentment comes from the gut.
I'm sure you can drag out many native Indians who claim that they could care less and show examples where the name is used on a regular basis.
But the true leadership and the preservers and protectors of our culture feel that it's time to lose the stereotype and the label that carries so much hate and despair within it's historical meaning.
For those who say "What About Indian? What About the Florida Seminoles? what about any number of team names?"
We take no exception to any other Native American label in common usage in the land except "Redskin".
We expressly made a video that gently and firmly lay's out our position on the issue. I suggesst you give it one more view. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR-tbOxlhvE
GuyNTexas, Although we've disagreed on most issues, I've always enjoyed our exchanges and that fact remains so to this day.
Thanks again for your prayers and best wishes. It was a razor's edge surgical procedure, but it's behind me now.
Damn, mohawkx, I'm so sorry to hear about your hospitalization. I wish you the best and smoothest possible recovery. I'm glad you have family around you. Also morphine.
In any case, your logical, cogent defense of your position is, as always, a breath of fresh air on these vile threads. I doubt if many of your detractors will note it, but I think I'll borrow the facts you typed up for use here and on other forums where Stormfront refugees run wild.
I simply can't understand how people can -- and will, no doubt, on this very thread -- continue to insist that it's only "five" Indians who care about this issue, or that because they personally do not find it offensive, it isn't offensive. Oh, and lest I forget the best one of all -- that because the one Indian they know, or their neighbor's cousin's brother-in-law knows, isn't offended, it isn't offensive.
Be well and take care of yourself. Rest. Listen to your doctors. Do what makes you happy. A mother hen has spoken.
Thank you for your prayers. Obviously they are working. I'm home, the meds work and I have limited function. At least the ability to peck away at a keyboard for a few hours before hitting the sack.
With all due respect, The flaw I see in your argument is that you seem to ascribe the distaste for the Redskin handle as confined to a very few, thin skinned Native Americans. It is easy to deflate one's argument in a debate by marginalizing the opposition to just a few outliers.
The other end of your argument is that there are various other challenges facing the Indian Nations and American society that have a much higher priority than the matter of a team name.
I'll dismiss that offhand by saying that we Native Americans have become very good at multi-tasking and can chew gum, walk and listen to an Ipod at the same time, among other things.
My very next thought on the matter is "Why is it so important for you to want to keep the offensive handle? What will you lose if you change it? We, on the other hand, will gain a measure of our cultural and racial respect back."
As for being the lone, thin skinned Redman who cries out for a name change to the Washington Football team, I will have to stand with the following organizations and tribal affiliates who also petition the court of public opinion for a name change.
National Congress of American Indians
Comprised of 562 separate tribes and authorized to speak for them.
The following tribes have officially endorsed a name change in addition to the blanket endoresment by the NCAI
Agua Caliente Band of Cahuilla Indians
Central Council Tlingit and Haida Tribes of Alaska
Chickasaw Nation
Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma
Coeur D'Alene Tribe
Confederated Tribes of the Siletz Indians
Cow Creek Band of Umpqua Tribe of Indians
Forest County Potawatomi Community
Fort McDowell Yavapai Nation
Ho-Chunk Nation
Jamestown S'Klallam Tribe
Little Traverse Bay Bands of Odawa Indians
Lummi Nation
Mississippi Band of Choctaw Indians
Morongo Band of Mission Indians
Muckleshoot Indian Tribe
Oneida Tribe of Indians of Wisconsin
Pechanga Band of Luiseno Indians
Pokagon Band of Potawatomi Indians
Prairie Band of Potawatomi Nation
Prairie Island Tribal Council
Pueblo of Isleta
Redding Rancheria
Rincon Band of Luiseno Indians
San Manuel Band of Mission Indians
Santo Domingo Tribe
Seminole Tribe of Florida
Seneca Nation
Shakopee Mdewakanton Sioux Community
Soboba Band of Luiseno Indians
Swinomish Tribe
The Tulalip Tribes
The Ute Indian Tribe
Tohono O'Odham Nation
Twenty-Nine Palms Band of Mission Indians
Ute Mountain Ute
Needless to say the Iroquois Confederacy(Also known as the Haudenosaunee), made up of the following tribes also endorse a name change
Mohawk
Oneida
Seneca
Onondaga
Cayuga
Tuscarora
Last but not least.......My Mother
I am no thin skinned progressive. I was a member of AIM (American Indian Movement), the militant arm of the National Congress of American Indians. I ran the coast guard blockade to resupply the Indians on Alcatraz Is. Back in my salad days.
We lost that battle against the Federal Government just as Cliven Bundy will lose his battle against them for the very same reasons.
I do understand your point of view. That is just a team name and nobody means any harm by it but in our eyes, it perpetrates a misbegotten stereotype of our entire race and we resent it. Our resentment comes from the gut.
I'm sure you can drag out many native Indians who claim that they could care less and show examples where the name is used on a regular basis.
But the true leadership and the preservers and protectors of our culture feel that it's time to lose the stereotype and the label that carries so much hate and despair within it's historical meaning.
For those who say "What About Indian? What About the Florida Seminoles? what about any number of team names?"
We take no exception to any other Native American label in common usage in the land except "Redskin".
GuyNTexas, Although we've disagreed on most issues, I've always enjoyed our exchanges and that fact remains so to this day.
Thanks again for your prayers and best wishes. It was a razor's edge procedure but it's behind me now.
Smoke and prayers coming your way. You are always so eloquent even in the throws of illness. Thank you from one NDN to another.
Oh and for those who point to other teams most of those names are not considered so derogatory. I do know the Federally Recognized Spokane Indian Tribe gave the minor league baseball team permission to use the name. Same with the Florida Seminole tribe who also gave permission to Florida state to use the name.
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