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Old 07-13-2014, 07:40 PM
 
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Since the "Tea Party" doesn't run squat in Kansas but yet they are the ones being attacked, to me that says they have a whole lot of the establishment types scared.
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Old 07-13-2014, 07:43 PM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,795 posts, read 7,288,689 times
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Originally Posted by fibonacci View Post
http://www.latimes.com/changebrowser.../p2p-80761769/


Who'd ever thought that you'd need basic services or that blindly cutting taxes would just benefit the billionaires much more than the average middle class family?
The article is a piece of pure logistical fallacy and liberal deception. It is clearly politically motivated by pro union scumbags who's agenda is to steal as much as they can from the taxpayers.
If indeed the results of tax cuts are detrimental to the services of the taxpayers, they are free to vote to increase their taxes. But it seems at this point that some liberal asshat in California is much more exercised about this issue than the good citizens of the State if Kansas.
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Old 07-13-2014, 07:45 PM
 
Location: Central Ohio
10,834 posts, read 14,936,147 times
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Instead, job growth in Kansas trails the nation. The state's rainy-day fund is dwindling to zero. Month after month, revenue comes in even lower than fiscal officials' most dire expectations.
Wow, if only they had emulated the progressive policies of Illinois!
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Old 07-13-2014, 07:49 PM
 
3,216 posts, read 2,231,180 times
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Originally Posted by TreeBeard View Post
I have come to the come to the conclusion that Tea Party politicians, as Mr. Brownback, do not care about the economic realities of their policies. Ideology trumps ramifications. It matters not that the Governor of Kansas is taking his state to the point of bankruptcy or that his policies disproportionately negatively affects the poor and lower middle class, he has his ideology and bedamned the facts that his policies don't work.

And what do we call this type of faith?

I would call it a supply side religion. Or more accurately, an abridged Christian theology that disregards the basis tenets of Christ's teachings together with a whole heaping of voodoo economics.

Voodoo economics did not work Reagan; did not work for W; does not work for Brownback.

But you guys continue to keep the faith.
Most of the people I knew then; myself included; did quite well during the Reagan years. Certainly much better than Carter.
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Old 07-13-2014, 07:55 PM
 
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Most of the people I knew then; myself included; did quite well during the Reagan years. Certainly much better than Carter.
Same here..
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Old 07-13-2014, 07:56 PM
 
Location: Central Ohio
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Originally Posted by gretsky99 View Post
Same here..
Me too!
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Old 07-13-2014, 08:43 PM
 
Location: somewhere in the woods
16,880 posts, read 15,198,564 times
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Originally Posted by fibonacci View Post
http://www.latimes.com/changebrowser.../p2p-80761769/


Who'd ever thought that you'd need basic services or that blindly cutting taxes would just benefit the billionaires much more than the average middle class family?


after reading the story, it looks to me that the LA times is just mad that government got cut instead of having taxes raised.

too bad our federal government cannot do the same thing that Kansas is doing.
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Old 07-14-2014, 08:21 AM
 
7,800 posts, read 4,400,201 times
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Originally Posted by GnomadAK View Post
Were you actually an adult, or even alive, during the Reagan years?

At the time, I remember the "tax cuts for the wealthy" and how they would crush the middle and lower class. And yet, I went from owing taxes under Carter to getting a refund under Reagan, and I was a helluva long way short of being a millionaire. The way the economy roared and the feeling the energy of the time, the certainty that tomorrow was better than today and the day after that, even better. We shucked of fthat typical Democrat funk of things aren't ever going to get better and all we can do it manage the decline for a soft landing.

And if tax cuts are so bad, why did the Bamster go with "making work pay"? Tell you what, find me society that has taxed itself to propsperity and if it exists, why aren't you all living there?
I was alive. If you will recall it was his vice-president, G.H.W. Bush, who coined the term "voodoo economics" and it was his OMB director, David Stockman, who essentially called Reagan's supply-side/trickle-down economics a sham.

The Reagan administration itself had to raise taxes as well as his predecessor G.H.W. Bush to head off the nation from going to bankruptcy and to restore some fiscal sanity. G.H.W. Bush paid for the tax increases with the presidency but the nation itself began its restoration to fiscal soundness.

You last question is an easy one to answer. I will agree that a tax cut when taxes are high will spur the economy as during the Kennedy Administration, but when taxes are already low and the government coffers are already low, then tax cuts do little and if nothing are harmful to economy.

The argument that tax increase will destroy prosperity has been proven wrong time and time again. It was an argument that was heard during the Clinton Administration when it raised taxes slightly - wrong. It was even an argument with Obama increases as the stock market nears 20,000.00.


The basis of far right ideology is that the best government is a broke government. Starve the beast as they say. G.W. Bush pushed this nation to the brink of bankruptcy with his tax policy as has Brownback doing his best to do so with Kansas. It may well be that this and has been purposeful policy to nearly bankrupt the nation or state to limit government spending, not because it may be bad, such as infrastructure spending, but because your ideology says you must.

I will conclude by asking you a question, " tell you what, find me a society that has found prosperity by having a bankrupt government?" Perhaps you can move to a place where the governments are truly bankrupt and you will pay little in taxes, such as Haiti. Move there and enjoy.
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Old 07-14-2014, 08:28 AM
 
12,282 posts, read 13,239,617 times
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Originally Posted by Patricius Maximus View Post
If tax hikes work so well to stimulate the economy, how come California, Illinois, and Maryland are experiencing similar or worse problems than Kansas is now? The only two states that could be considered economically successful during the past 5 years are Texas and North Dakota, and both of those are part of that maligned group that have low taxes and "no basic government services". You can say what you want about whether they'd be better off if they followed different ideas, but lower taxes and fewer services has certainly not hurt their state to any significant degree. Also, I don't get this furor over the tax cut decreasing revenue - isn't it the whole point of cutting taxes for the government to take less money from people, so that those people can use that money to improve their own lives and make their own decisions about their future, thereby benefiting society as a whole? A decrease in revenue should be expected and planned for with spending cuts, and it appears that Kansas has fallen short in the planning department. Failing to cut spending enough is their problem, not cutting taxes - plenty of other places have cut taxes and not experienced these problems.

This whining about roads and firefighters is a red herring - if you add up spending on roads, police, and firefighters it comes to far less than the tax revenue that is coming in, so they could be fully funded with plenty left over. Most states' budgets are sucked up by welfare, schools, and medical care, and that triad of red ink is what is under strain, not police and firefighters. Government services in general do not add a cent to the economy - forcibly taking money from people in the form of taxes and sending it to some other purpose such as "government services" only redistributes funds in the economy; the act of taxing and spending does not create value or wealth of any kind, whereas the original owner of that money would have used it to create or purchase some value for himself and the other party to the transaction. Many here have fallen victim to the broken window fallacy, only considering what is seen without taking into account what is unseen. As Frederic Bastiat said in his essay:



Aside from the odd piece of infrastructure here and there, government taxation and spending follows this process - at best it only redistributes, neither creating nor destroying wealth or value, but at worst it sucks away money into a black hole that would have been used for far greater purposes by its owners.

One of the greatest black holes is medical care. Medicaid programs, which comprise the bulk of Kansas's health care spending, offer extremely dubious value for what is being spent on them; the most comprehensive study to date on the subject finds that Medicaid had no significant effect on health outcomes versus being uninsured, and Medicaid expansion actually increases ER visits, both of these contrary to the gospel of official Washington where "Medicaid helps people, ergo more Medicaid=more help" . Medicaid does not make people healthier, and nationwide $400 billion is being taken from the public every year to fund this monstrosity that entails no benefits, representing a loss to the economy of $400 billion per annum - with that in mind, why shouldn't we abolish the program and let people use that $400 billion for other more enjoyable and productive purposes?

Education is another black hole. Per pupil spending has more than doubled since 1970 with no change in NAEP scores (source) and no change in the perceived quality of the schools. The total K-12 cost has tripled in the same time period. Surely education spending could be reverted to 1970 levels with no ill effects, which would represent a 50-70% cut. The average public school costs $11000 per pupil per year; the vast majority of private schools you'll find of comparable quality to the average public school cost much less than that, most studies concluding roughly half. If public schools charged $11000 for what they were offering they would quickly go out of business in favor of private schools that charged less and offered better quality. Government by its nature offers a one-size-fits-all system, which may fit some areas, but is particularly unsuited to the market of educating millions of individual children with individual minds, experiences, and learning styles.

The free market system, if unleashed in education, will provide education that is far cheaper, of better quality, and that is born by customers and/or voluntary donors. No doubt if a community abolished public schools and compulsory enrollment (so as to not distort the market), the existing private schools would be filled to capacity with middle income students - seeing as people consider education an essential service, demand would be extremely high for new schools, particularly among the lower income students, and entrepreneurs and charitable individuals will see an opportunity and open up new schools. These new schools will follow a multitude of different models, varying more widely than public schools could ever hope to. There will doubtlessly be dozens of models available in the price range of the vast majority, offering better fits for greater numbers of students who were previously subject to the one-size-fits-all model of government schools. There will be a demand from lower income students as well; lower income people will be left with nothing at first, but then they will take a page out of homeschoolers' playbook and pool their resources into educational cooperatives. Charitable, scholarly, and entrepreneurial types will dream up ideas for opening schools for the poor, and then raise funds to help bring down tuitions for their clientele; these will vary almost as widely as the schools at higher ends of the income scale. Financial aid for other types of schools will be factor, opening up even more opportunities for students. Fundraisers would be widely successful and many people would enter the field because we as a society consider education to be essential - the same mentality that works against us changing the government system will work for us in making the free-market system work for everyone. Think this is impossible? A pie-in-the-sky libertarian fantasy filled with unrealistically perfect people? That in reality no one would do it if the state doesn't?

Well, without government who would plow the roads in Yellowstone? If government cut them off an essential service would be gone and the economy would collapse, wouldn't it? Not so. When the Sequester of 2013 cut them off, the residents launched a fundraising drive to enable the roads to be plowed in the Spring like usual, and the frequent visitors and other individuals chipped in for what they considered an essential service - the residents then proceeded to plow the roads themselves without government funding and visitors could enjoy the road.

Without government who would maintain the parks in Detroit? If government cut them off an essential service would be gone and children's quality of life would suffer, wouldn't it? Even if they could be privatized greedy millionaires would lock out the poor keeping it for themselves, wouldn't they? Not so. 2014 marks four years since one man with a mower, a mind, and some free time created the Detroit Mower Gang to have a good time and do good for children in the midst of park funding being cut off by the government. This is another instance of the do-it-yourself approach to essential government services that is not only effective, but is immune to the vagaries of politics. If you still doubt whether this is possible, waltz over to any of your local grocery stores or food banks where you can see people buying, selling, or giving food, a human need even more basic than education, most of whom are using no government funds in doing so.

There is a lot of haggling over welfare and how much of a role government should play in that, but education and health care combined are more costly and more impactful than welfare yet that issue gets much less press. According to Ballotpedia, in Kansas if Medicaid and K-12 schools were eliminated, which I've already argued would be a great benefit to the state, you've eliminated 44% of the state budget! Spending is reduced from $14.4 billion to $8.1 billion - that more than takes care of the budget shortfall, and instead gives a windfall surplus which can be invested in a sovereign wealth fund, returned to the taxpayers, used to pay debt, or spent elsewhere. If you throw in higher education spending (a different kettle of fish so not covered previously), you've eliminated 61% of the state budget, without touching non-Medicaid welfare, police, firefighters, or transportation.



Police and roads amount to 11% of the Kansas state budget, and adding in K-12 schools it comes to 37%. Since over 90 percent of the budget is covered by revenues, there is no excuse except laziness to properly funding police, roads, and schools, considering that the state has sufficient funds coming in to do so.

The reason sub-Saharan Africa cannot fund such things is because they don't have any money available in the first place - most of Africa has a GDP (PPP) per capita roughly a tenth of the developed world, so they couldn't fund first world essentials no matter what means they used even if they wanted to. Their economies have to grow before that can happen; they suffer from "100% of nothing is nothing" syndrome. It should also be noted that these poor countries score very low in economic freedom, so they're not suffering from any lack of forcible intervention. The reason a developed country can fund such things is not because of high taxes, but because the money is available to tax and redistribute in the first place; without taxation, the money would still be there available for people to spend on these essentials, which is quite a different situation from what most of Africa faces. Whether this would be a drawback or a benefit is another matter, but my point here is that it is ridiculous to suggest that lack of taxation will put a country into the Third World.

I thought we were talking TAX CUTS not Tax Hikes. Big difference.

Last edited by Versatile; 07-14-2014 at 08:28 AM.. Reason: hikes for hights
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Old 07-14-2014, 08:35 AM
 
Location: Someplace Wonderful
5,177 posts, read 4,791,608 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fibonacci View Post
http://www.latimes.com/changebrowser.../p2p-80761769/


Who'd ever thought that you'd need basic services or that blindly cutting taxes would just benefit the billionaires much more than the average middle class family?
Yet Rick Perry proudly asserts that it is low taxes and fantastic tax incentives that have led to the Texas economic boon.

So what is Kansas doing wrong? That's the real question.

PS how many billionaires are there in Kansas? Just wondering.
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