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This should be interesting... OU will lose, and Boren has personal liability.
All they have to do is submit Samir Shabazz's public example of racist Free Speech, and the multitude of UC Berkeley's protests which offend anyone, as examples.
Here's the difference: This SAE chapter was a university-funded institution. And it wasn't just members of that institution who happened to be saying stupid racist crap, but a) by invoking the name of the institution they were speaking not as individuals but on behalf of that institution; and b) they were, at the very least, advocating discriminatory practices if not bragging about the outright implementation of those practices. Not only is the university under no obligation to fund such an institution, but they could even be sued for continuing to do so.
If the chapter is successful, it would far more likely be on due process grounds if the university did not follow its own disciplinary process rather than on 1st Amendment grounds. But then they have the other problem of the national chapter having told them to shove off, so what are they going to do even if they win against the university?
How can a public university expel students for singing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MJJersey
Most people have heard of the oklahoma university racist song by now. No one doubts that what these kids did was dumb and racist. But I read the school closed their frat, and they are now talking suspension or expulsion. The school president said they "abused" their free speech. Have we really gotten to the point where a public school can expel students for a non-threatening albeit racist song? It sounds unconstitutional to me.
How can someone (anyone) get this incident so bass ackwards? And then start a thread about it?
How can someone (anyone) get this incident so bass ackwards? And then start a thread about it?
I know right. As soon as he heard ****** come out those white boys mouths he should have went all rightous outrage protest mode. Instead the focus is on some stupid 200 year old document about free speech bs. Nerve!
jetgraphics, expulsion is not being charged with a felony. Your employer can fire you, but cannot arrest you..same principle. Universities have standards of conduct, just as employers do. Tell your boss he is ugly and stupid Wednesday, and come back to tell us how your "workplace freedom of speech" held up.
Quote:
ORIGINAL QUOTE:
This is a felony under jurisdiction of the Thought Police.
Thou shalt not speak politically incorrect words!
It matters not that actions did not follow those words.
Nor were persons or property injured.
Such words cannot be spoken by a free people.
Apparently, some readers did not see the sarcasm and irony of "free people" under the jurisdiction of the Thought Police.
Either you have free speech or you do not... even if it is unpopular, politically incorrect, or offensive.
Here's the difference: This SAE chapter was a university-funded institution. And it wasn't just members of that institution who happened to be saying stupid racist crap, but a) by invoking the name of the institution they were speaking not as individuals but on behalf of that institution; and b) they were, at the very least, advocating discriminatory practices if not bragging about the outright implementation of those practices. Not only is the university under no obligation to fund such an institution, but they could even be sued for continuing to do so.
Can you explain how they were university funded? I've heard of campuses where the university owns the housing, but the fraternities and sororities still pay for the usage of the facilities. I've never heard of a university giving funds to a fraternity or sorority directly.
'Fighting words' are not protected under the Constitution. Point blank, period. The words uttered by the SAE students were clearly fighting words. Do you deny that they weren't? You guys keep harping on OU's status as a 'governmental entity', yet are ignoring this important fact, quite clearly established by legal precedent. Free speech doesn't apply to all speech--hate speech is not protected. The law is quite clear on this matter, so it seems that you are lacking in legal comprehension, to say nothing of common sense or morals (though I suspect you're probably deficient in those areas, as well).
"Fighting words" is only pertinent if there are people present who would be provoked into a fight by those words. There were no such people present when the frat boys sang their song.
Hate speech is protected.
Court cases have been consistent on that point. Public universities that have punished students for hate speech have consistently lost when those students sue in court.
You can't punish somebody just for openly hating or being a racist or being a Nazi etc.
How do you think the hate-filled Westboro Baptist Church has gotten away with its homophobic demonstrations and picketing of the funerals of dead soldiers?
They get away with it because they are protected by the first amendment, just as the Nazis who marched through Skokie, IL were protected by the first amendment.
I just love how you liberals HATE the fact that, in many ways, this is still a free country where you can think and say things that other people find offensive.
You are are not true Americans, and you belong in Cuba, North Korea or Iran. In those countries, you surely will be "protected" by governments that control speech and everything else.
Last edited by dechatelet; 03-14-2015 at 01:06 AM..
But the video WAS publicly consumed. We can play hypothetical scenarios all day long as far as intent, but the video WAS distributed. As such, that chant, currently, IS directed toward people who would be (rightfully) threatened or offended by it. There is a clear threat directed towards a specific population--fighting words. And if you don't agree that they're fighting words, why don't you try 'singing' them around a group of African-Americans?
Merely being racist and expressing that racism is not a threat to anyone.
As for the "hanging from a tree" part of the song, they didn't say "We are going to hang so and so from a tree." With no indication that they were going to actually commit such an act, there was no reason for anyone to feel threatened.
Everything about their song expressed a preference, not an imminent act.
So no one could reasonably feel physically threatened by that video.
And again, "fighting words" means people have to be physically present so that a fight can occur.
If you watch the video of the racist chant, are the frat boys singing it in your physical presence so that a fight can occur?
What? You just gave an example of defending the indefensible (Samir Shabazz's abhorrent statement). And you're the one who wants to go around calling folks stupid?
She didn't defend it, she said it was legal and constitutional.
Not all speech is protected by the First Amendment, which has been established by numerous legal precedents. What about that do you not understand? Stop assuming my emotional state, and start putting forth a credible argument.
We know that not all speech is protected. No one has denied that here.
You are the one who needs to show that racist speech or hate speech is not protected by the Constitution.
To all the people going back and forth with the defenders of free speech....you are wasting your time. Its not a free speech issue. No speech was prevented, restricted or penalized as per the OU letter sent to the two students that were expelled.
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How can a public university expel students for singing?
