Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I hate to interject facts into a good bushbash ...
but...
So at the close of World War ONE the world punished Germany for its aggressiveness. then left them....
Effectively creating a very large group of desperate people...who were turned over to a group of extremists.
Enter WW2...
Enter the end of WW2.... President Truman (D) turned to General Marshall to come up with a plan. He pointed out the above and suggested a very different course. REBUILD the defeated... and STAY there.
Enter Eisenhower... he stayed the course and added Korea to that same policy
Enter Kennedy (D) who continued the policy
Enter LBJ (D) who continued the policy
Enter Nixon (R) who continued the policy
Enter Carter (D) who somehow did not ********** one thing up and who continued the policy
Enter Reagan (R) who continued the policy
Enter G. H. W. Bush (R) who continued the policy
Enter Clinton (D) who continued the policy
Enter G. W. Bush (R) who continued the policy
Enter the Grand Wonderful Mighty Ocean rise-stopper President Barak Hussein Obama
Who decided that such a policy was stupid....
Now we have not seen desperate people left in the hand of extremists in countries we invaded and won the territory... over all the other presidents but then BHO comes along and changes the policy... and the OP wants to BLAME A GUY WHO WOULD NEVER HAVE DONE WHAT BHO DID?????
Enter
A couple of very major differences:
1. Germany was a nation. The Germans were not fighting sectarian battles among themselves. There was no problem with Bavarians being at war with Hessians. There was problem with Americans standing between warring sects.
2. Germany had surrendered. They actually knew what the word meant and had accepted it, and they accepted being occupied. The US imposed a Status of Forces Agreement that was acceptable to the US, and not only Germany but the entire world accepted it. That meant the US had secure logistical routes through benign nations surrounding Germany. It meant that US soldiers had a benign environment to operate.
3. Because Germany was an integrated nation, there was no "nation building" involved. That was just a matter of rebuilding the physical infrastructure that the US had destroyed.
4. Most importantly: US troops were not under fire from the populace or from outside fighters. Peace had actually been established and accepted.
None of that was true for Iraq. Peace was never established, there was and is not now an Iraqi "nation." The US has never yet succeeded in nation building where there was not already an integrated nation. No other nation--especially none of the nations surrounding Iraq--would benignly accept permanent US occupation of Iraq. The combat would have been continuous and with no secure logistical routes, the US would ultimately have been forced to abandon Iraq anyway.
Never forget: Operations wins battles, but logistics wins wars.
1. Germany was a nation. The Germans were not fighting sectarian battles among themselves. There was no problem with Bavarians being at war with Hessians. There was problem with Americans standing between warring sects.
2. Germany had surrendered. They actually knew what the word meant and had accepted it, and they accepted being occupied. The US imposed a Status of Forces Agreement that was acceptable to the US, and not only Germany but the entire world accepted it. That meant the US had secure logistical routes through benign nations surrounding Germany. It meant that US soldiers had a benign environment to operate.
3. Because Germany was an integrated nation, there was no "nation building" involved. That was just a matter of rebuilding the physical infrastructure that the US had destroyed.
4. Most importantly: US troops were not under fire from the populace or from outside fighters. Peace had actually been established and accepted.
None of that was true for Iraq. Peace was never established, there was and is not now an Iraqi "nation." The US has never yet succeeded in nation building where there was not already an integrated nation. No other nation--especially none of the nations surrounding Iraq--would benignly accept permanent US occupation of Iraq. The combat would have been continuous and with no secure logistical routes, the US would ultimately have been forced to abandon Iraq anyway.
Never forget: Operations wins battles, but logistics wins wars.
I utterly disagree that the differences you suggest matter one bit.
we won the war. what we did not do was stick around and win the peace. We have always WON THE PEACE... well except WW1 as I pointed out.
you cannot undo facts by coming up with things you think that actually don't matter.
(Germany was not the only place we have won the peace. )
ISIS is running around Iraq and Syria, killing, raping and destroying churches without much resistance from America, whose stupid invasion of Iraq and subsequent removal of Saddam enabled their bloody rampage - 'Mission Accomplished'?
Still blaming Bush sigh. The commander in Chief is the one who claimed he would finish this war and he sits on his hands....you know it, you see it....own it.
Correction Bush/Cheney/Hillary started this war, Obama kept us there too long, and the natural occurrence of a battle between Shia, Sunni Arab, and Sunni Kurd has begun.
Yep. That puts it pretty succinctly.
It doesn't matter who is in the White House. Doesn't matter what the U.S. military does or doesn't do. Without a BRUTAL dictator holding the artificial 'country' of Iraq together, civil war and a re-drawing of borders is inevitable.
IMO we shouldn't waste one more life or one more dollar on the place. Let Allah sort it out.
ISIS is running around Iraq and Syria, killing, raping and destroying churches without much resistance from America, whose stupid invasion of Iraq and subsequent removal of Saddam enabled their bloody rampage - 'Mission Accomplished'?
The country of Iraq was doing so well Biden was bragging about it, before 0bama pulled out and decided to lose all that had been gained, just so he could add another plank to his reelection campaign.
Still blaming Bush sigh. The commander in Chief is the one who claimed he would finish this war and he sits on his hands....you know it, you see it....own it.
but.... but.... but.... 0bama is flying about 5-8 air sorties a day. Yup, 0bama's really bring the fight to ISIL.
Just remember to call them the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, they really like that, and 0bama always makes sure he respects them enough to call them that too.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
