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Ok, so here's the deal. I am a conservative blue-collar worker, both in a fiscal and social sense. But while I do care a great deal about social issues, in the end fiscal issues matter more because a bad economy is going to harm me more than bad social policy most of the time.
But here thing is: in my country the traditional conservative party which advertises itself as being fiscally right-wing doesn't actually appear to be so. Oh sure, they lower taxes and all. But only on select groups that are likely to vote for them...
See, a person that is fiscally right-wing believes in lowering taxes for EVERYBODY. That EVERYBODY should be treated the SAME by the tax man. But that is not how my nation's conservatives think. I will give 2 examples, 1 which probably took place somewhere between 6-12 months ago and another which happened just today while I was reading the news.
Some time ago, the current "right-wing" government decided to lower certain taxes and raise others. They abolished the sugar tax which the last left-wing government put in place, as well as taxes on TV's and other gadgets. They also lowered taxes or car tiers. Perhaps a bunch of other stuff as well, but these are the things that come to mind. But they also raised taxes on one other thing: Food.
Food. They raised the taxes on ****ing food. While lowering taxes on ****ing sweets and TV's...
Their line of reasoning was that they wanted to make the tax system more simple. After this change the tax collected on food and tv's and stuff is the same. At first, this sounds like it's what right-wing tax policy is about. Tax everything the same. But the problem is the execution. We have this thing which is called the personal income tax credit. It's a tax discount that everybody gets of their income regardless of how much income they get. If the government had any brains, they would have simply raised the food tax to make it the same as the taxes collected on that other stuff, and then use the money to raise the income tax credit. In that way, the tax system could have been made more simple while still not ****ing over those with low incomes. Instead, they decided to simply lower the tax on the fancy stuff and then raise the food tax until they were the same.
And I know why they decided to do it in this way: It's because it appeals more to the spoiled middle class people who vote for them. "**** low income people, they don't need food. Let's lower the tax on dem big ****ing TV's instead!!!! That's what gets us dem awesome middle class votes!"
And of course they acted completely shocked when lots of people hated on them for doing this!
Very strictly speaking, this may not be a violation of right-wing economic thought since this involved making people pay the same tax on these goods regardless of what kind of goods they are. It is mostly because of HOW they decided to simplify it that I call bull**** on the idea that they were trying to treat everybody the same with this change. This was just a blatant attempt to appeal to materialistic middle class people at the expense of low income workers.
The second example happened today. I was reading the news and our minister of finance said he is planning on lowering tariffs a lot in the next couple of years. I will admit that this could just be a empty promise, or at least I hope so. But anyway...
So he wants to lower tariffs. So surely he is going to be a good fair right-winger and just lower all tariffs, right? Nope. Once again he wants to appeal to the spoiled middle and upper class voters instead. He intends to abolish all tariffs! Except for the ones on food...because of course he won't! **** food. People don't need that ****. They want cheap ****ing Ipads!
Worst of all is when I talk to some of the middle class people who try to defend this garbage by saying things like "Who are YOU to tell me what to buy? Why should I have to pay a tariff on the fancy cloth or Ipad I want?". If ALL of the tariffs had been dropped those people would have a point. But they weren't. I still get to pay more for food, and they get more **** that they probably don't need at a lower price. Meaning that those who are buying things that actually matter are subsidizing those who get to import their fun **** for free!
Ok, I am just about to give up on these people. They are obviously not actually fiscally conservative. They just carefully pick and choose who gets to benefit from lower taxes for political purposes. This is not the same as treating everybody in a fair way like a TRUE fiscal conservative would actually do.
Do you know how left-wingers bribe stupid low-income people with promises of special treatment through the welfare system? As far as I can tell my nation's conservatives are the same except that they bribe the middle and upper class with special treatment through the tax system. Neither group of course actually treats everybody the same.
I don't think my country is the only one suffering from this kind of problem.
What I think the west needs is a wave of new right-wing parties that ACTUALLY TREAT EVERYBODY FAIRLY!!! No bull**** tax favors for only select groups. Everybody pays taxes in the same way, in a FAIR way!
I personally suggest a triple combo of a moderate flat income tax+flat VAT+income tax credit. That way everybody is treated exactly the same and yet nobody gets ****ed.
Do you also feel that your nation's conservatives aren't actually being very conservative at all?
Most American conservatives or at least the Republicans that represent them seem to believe in catering to the upper crust of bankers and financiers as well as military contractors and energy companies at consider cost to everyone else. Our conservatives seem to be royalists that prefer a collusion between government and finance led by a Great Leader like Ronald Reagan.
If I am a really big bank and I do foolish things that result in going broke I get trillions of free money so I can do it again. If I am a retired house holder that looses a bet on a house or a stock investment I get to go bankrupt and never see a dime of federal money and will most likely be denied any loans for the foreseeable future.
The way your government has skewed the taxes to place the burden on those that can least afford them is to be expected of people that value selling toys to the affluent than basic sustenance to the poor. I suggest, although I do not know how the Icelandic government is elected, you put together a political party of and supported by the poor and take over your government from the elites that have stolen it from you.
Ok, so here's the deal. I am a conservative blue-collar worker, both in a fiscal and social sense. But while I do care a great deal about social issues, in the end fiscal issues matter more because a bad economy is going to harm me more than bad social policy most of the time.
But here thing is: in my country the traditional conservative party which advertises itself as being fiscally right-wing doesn't actually appear to be so. Oh sure, they lower taxes and all. But only on select groups that are likely to vote for them...
See, a person that is fiscally right-wing believes in lowering taxes for EVERYBODY. That EVERYBODY should be treated the SAME by the tax man. But that is not how my nation's conservatives think. I will give 2 examples, 1 which probably took place somewhere between 6-12 months ago and another which happened just today while I was reading the news.
Some time ago, the current "right-wing" government decided to lower certain taxes and raise others. They abolished the sugar tax which the last left-wing government put in place, as well as taxes on TV's and other gadgets. They also lowered taxes or car tiers. Perhaps a bunch of other stuff as well, but these are the things that come to mind. But they also raised taxes on one other thing: Food.
Food. They raised the taxes on ****ing food. While lowering taxes on ****ing sweets and TV's...
Their line of reasoning was that they wanted to make the tax system more simple. After this change the tax collected on food and tv's and stuff is the same. At first, this sounds like it's what right-wing tax policy is about. Tax everything the same. But the problem is the execution. We have this thing which is called the personal income tax credit. It's a tax discount that everybody gets of their income regardless of how much income they get. If the government had any brains, they would have simply raised the food tax to make it the same as the taxes collected on that other stuff, and then use the money to raise the income tax credit. In that way, the tax system could have been made more simple while still not ****ing over those with low incomes. Instead, they decided to simply lower the tax on the fancy stuff and then raise the food tax until they were the same.
And I know why they decided to do it in this way: It's because it appeals more to the spoiled middle class people who vote for them. "**** low income people, they don't need food. Let's lower the tax on dem big ****ing TV's instead!!!! That's what gets us dem awesome middle class votes!"
And of course they acted completely shocked when lots of people hated on them for doing this!
Very strictly speaking, this may not be a violation of right-wing economic thought since this involved making people pay the same tax on these goods regardless of what kind of goods they are. It is mostly because of HOW they decided to simplify it that I call bull**** on the idea that they were trying to treat everybody the same with this change. This was just a blatant attempt to appeal to materialistic middle class people at the expense of low income workers.
The second example happened today. I was reading the news and our minister of finance said he is planning on lowering tariffs a lot in the next couple of years. I will admit that this could just be a empty promise, or at least I hope so. But anyway...
So he wants to lower tariffs. So surely he is going to be a good fair right-winger and just lower all tariffs, right? Nope. Once again he wants to appeal to the spoiled middle and upper class voters instead. He intends to abolish all tariffs! Except for the ones on food...because of course he won't! **** food. People don't need that ****. They want cheap ****ing Ipads!
Worst of all is when I talk to some of the middle class people who try to defend this garbage by saying things like "Who are YOU to tell me what to buy? Why should I have to pay a tariff on the fancy cloth or Ipad I want?". If ALL of the tariffs had been dropped those people would have a point. But they weren't. I still get to pay more for food, and they get more **** that they probably don't need at a lower price. Meaning that those who are buying things that actually matter are subsidizing those who get to import their fun **** for free!
Ok, I am just about to give up on these people. They are obviously not actually fiscally conservative. They just carefully pick and choose who gets to benefit from lower taxes for political purposes. This is not the same as treating everybody in a fair way like a TRUE fiscal conservative would actually do.
Do you know how left-wingers bribe stupid low-income people with promises of special treatment through the welfare system? As far as I can tell my nation's conservatives are the same except that they bribe the middle and upper class with special treatment through the tax system. Neither group of course actually treats everybody the same.
I don't think my country is the only one suffering from this kind of problem.
What I think the west needs is a wave of new right-wing parties that ACTUALLY TREAT EVERYBODY FAIRLY!!! No bull**** tax favors for only select groups. Everybody pays taxes in the same way, in a FAIR way!
I personally suggest a triple combo of a moderate flat income tax+flat VAT+income tax credit. That way everybody is treated exactly the same and yet nobody gets ****ed.
Do you also feel that your nation's conservatives aren't actually being very conservative at all?
The words fiscal conservative are meaningless. You are right about that fact.
A true fiscal conservative would be willing to raise taxes. And 100% of the people claiming the title fiscal conservative only want to cut spending, mostly for programs they perceive that help groups of Americans they hate, and cutting taxes for rich people.
I have not seen or heard one person claiming to be a fiscal conservative and those moves weren't their priority. Moves which have nothing to do with fiscal conservatism.
Most American conservatives or at least the Republicans that represent them seem to believe in catering to the upper crust of bankers and financiers as well as military contractors and energy companies at consider cost to everyone else. Our conservatives seem to be royalists that prefer a collusion between government and finance led by a Great Leader like Ronald Reagan.
If I am a really big bank and I do foolish things that result in going broke I get trillions of free money so I can do it again. If I am a retired house holder that looses a bet on a house or a stock investment I get to go bankrupt and never see a dime of federal money and will most likely be denied any loans for the foreseeable future.
The way your government has skewed the taxes to place the burden on those that can least afford them is to be expected of people that value selling toys to the affluent than basic sustenance to the poor. I suggest, although I do not know how the Icelandic government is elected, you put together a political party of and supported by the poor and take over your government from the elites that have stolen it from you.
No kidding. Look at all these conservative bankers!!
How can we cut taxes evenly when somewhere between 45-55% of income earners already pay zero (or actually receive money via income tax)?
If I could just wave a magic wand and get the tax system I like, Income tax and property tax for either individuals or corporations, would not exist.
I would replace them with a sales tax plus a tax on taking money earned in the USA outside the country. This has become a (currently perfectly legal) way for corporations to "hide" cash from the IRS.
An alternative, which will never fly because it is "regressive" would be a direct capitation tax; charge everyone living in the USA a "per head" tax where the richest person pays the same as the poorest. "payment" could be a direct payment, as in I owe $1000.00 -- here is a check, OR a personally directed reduction in gov't funded services as in I owe $1000.00-- reduce my EBT by $500.00 and take $500.00 off my unemployment compensation" OR by a combination of the two. This would have the effect of making EVERYONE consider the cost when they hear of a new gov't program.
Of course we could also try to get the various heavily subsidized programs to "ear their keep". Their re LOTS of subsidy payments for rail and other non-road transportation coming out of our fuel tax revenues, which are SUPPOSED to be earmarked specifically for road maintenance, repair and improvement. If there were a surplus that might be acceptable but in fact there is a deficit' we need more road money than we have, so why spend it on non-road projects? I mean, why other than "these other projects are cool"?
Ok, so here's the deal. I am a conservative blue-collar worker, both in a fiscal and social sense. But while I do care a great deal about social issues, in the end fiscal issues matter more because a bad economy is going to harm me more than bad social policy most of the time.
But here thing is: in my country the traditional conservative party which advertises itself as being fiscally right-wing doesn't actually appear to be so. Oh sure, they lower taxes and all. But only on select groups that are likely to vote for them...
See, a person that is fiscally right-wing believes in lowering taxes for EVERYBODY. That EVERYBODY should be treated the SAME by the tax man. But that is not how my nation's conservatives think. I will give 2 examples, 1 which probably took place somewhere between 6-12 months ago and another which happened just today while I was reading the news.
Some time ago, the current "right-wing" government decided to lower certain taxes and raise others. They abolished the sugar tax which the last left-wing government put in place, as well as taxes on TV's and other gadgets. They also lowered taxes or car tiers. Perhaps a bunch of other stuff as well, but these are the things that come to mind. But they also raised taxes on one other thing: Food.
Food. They raised the taxes on ****ing food. While lowering taxes on ****ing sweets and TV's...
Their line of reasoning was that they wanted to make the tax system more simple. After this change the tax collected on food and tv's and stuff is the same. At first, this sounds like it's what right-wing tax policy is about. Tax everything the same. But the problem is the execution. We have this thing which is called the personal income tax credit. It's a tax discount that everybody gets of their income regardless of how much income they get. If the government had any brains, they would have simply raised the food tax to make it the same as the taxes collected on that other stuff, and then use the money to raise the income tax credit. In that way, the tax system could have been made more simple while still not ****ing over those with low incomes. Instead, they decided to simply lower the tax on the fancy stuff and then raise the food tax until they were the same.
And I know why they decided to do it in this way: It's because it appeals more to the spoiled middle class people who vote for them. "**** low income people, they don't need food. Let's lower the tax on dem big ****ing TV's instead!!!! That's what gets us dem awesome middle class votes!"
And of course they acted completely shocked when lots of people hated on them for doing this!
Very strictly speaking, this may not be a violation of right-wing economic thought since this involved making people pay the same tax on these goods regardless of what kind of goods they are. It is mostly because of HOW they decided to simplify it that I call bull**** on the idea that they were trying to treat everybody the same with this change. This was just a blatant attempt to appeal to materialistic middle class people at the expense of low income workers.
The second example happened today. I was reading the news and our minister of finance said he is planning on lowering tariffs a lot in the next couple of years. I will admit that this could just be a empty promise, or at least I hope so. But anyway...
So he wants to lower tariffs. So surely he is going to be a good fair right-winger and just lower all tariffs, right? Nope. Once again he wants to appeal to the spoiled middle and upper class voters instead. He intends to abolish all tariffs! Except for the ones on food...because of course he won't! **** food. People don't need that ****. They want cheap ****ing Ipads!
Worst of all is when I talk to some of the middle class people who try to defend this garbage by saying things like "Who are YOU to tell me what to buy? Why should I have to pay a tariff on the fancy cloth or Ipad I want?". If ALL of the tariffs had been dropped those people would have a point. But they weren't. I still get to pay more for food, and they get more **** that they probably don't need at a lower price. Meaning that those who are buying things that actually matter are subsidizing those who get to import their fun **** for free!
Ok, I am just about to give up on these people. They are obviously not actually fiscally conservative. They just carefully pick and choose who gets to benefit from lower taxes for political purposes. This is not the same as treating everybody in a fair way like a TRUE fiscal conservative would actually do.
Do you know how left-wingers bribe stupid low-income people with promises of special treatment through the welfare system? As far as I can tell my nation's conservatives are the same except that they bribe the middle and upper class with special treatment through the tax system. Neither group of course actually treats everybody the same.
I don't think my country is the only one suffering from this kind of problem.
What I think the west needs is a wave of new right-wing parties that ACTUALLY TREAT EVERYBODY FAIRLY!!! No bull**** tax favors for only select groups. Everybody pays taxes in the same way, in a FAIR way!
I personally suggest a triple combo of a moderate flat income tax+flat VAT+income tax credit. That way everybody is treated exactly the same and yet nobody gets ****ed.
Do you also feel that your nation's conservatives aren't actually being very conservative at all?
The vast majority of self-identified conservatives care simply about what's good for me, myself, and I. If you actually think these kinds of people believe in the principles they mouth off about, then you'll be highly disappointed.
A true fiscal conservative would be willing to raise taxes.
That's warped. A bunch of leftists who only want their spendthrift ways legitimized rather than stopped demands that taxes be increased to cover for their indulgence.
No wonder progressives endorse Keynesian borrowing in order to buy time.
I was expecting more conservatives to post in this thread. So far only liberals have responded for the most part bashing conservatives. Lame. I was hoping for a conversation about the current state of right-wing politics in the west. Not just "conservatards lel".
The social conservatives (southerners) need to form their own party. Then only the GOP of old, the northeastern establishment, can get back its original form. The 19th-century politics of social conservatives has always been an odd pairing with the establishment business Republicans. What does a Wall Street trader have in common with a bible thumping Teabagger?
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