Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Public housing complexes started to be dismantled after Katrina. Katrina happened in 2005. I'd like to note that crime started to fall in 1994. To go down the list of the services provided to the poor:
Control over our housing authority has been relegated to the federal government for long before Katrina, but we've provided public housing for the poor or subsidies for it for a very long time.
We've had free healthcare for the poor since the 1700's.
We've had free education since long before desegregation.
We've had paid for college tuition for everybody given certain academic requirements since 1989.
SNAP has been around since 1978.
Government contract preferential since the 60's if I remember.
We aren't the only city or state that has had these institutions set up for a long time either. This is similar across the nation. Crime has been going down in the 90's but has plateaued and it's still bad. This year saw a spike across many cities. Subsidies have been going on forever, and quite honestly I'm not mad at that.
In regards to the question this thread poses: murders, robberies, and rape are now going on in front of communities which was rare to see it in. Why is this morally or philosophically correct to allow to continue?
To attempt to solve this issue: when are we going to realize that violent people need to realize themselves that violence is not the answer - that we cannot solve that for them? I cannot fathom the mentality it takes to end someone's life over a few dollars, or over a lack of respect, or over a business rivalry. Black poverty will not be resolved until they realize it is wrong, until they start turning in their murderous children, until they finally realize that the generational hell of their kind will not stop until they become brave enough to turn these evil people in. It will not be resolved until they stop a cultural mentality that getting an education is less worthy than killing other people. So much can be done by them, but they do not see it worth it, so why should anybody else?
It isn't morally or philosophically correct to let continue, it is a problem that should be dealt with, but centralizing the problem out of sight, out of mind isn't the answer because it doesn't actually fix the problem.
Maybe you can't change the outcome of the adults, but you can change the outcome of future generations.
No, you're the one spouting nonsense to defend criminal and dysfunctional behavior. I think it's wrong for poor people to act indecently, disorderly, destructively and violently criminal. And moving them to a different neighborhood isn't going to make them less poor or fix their dysfunctional heritable traits.
No, what is nonsense is you thinking all poor people are criminals.
If there wasn't a precedent for cultural affinity groups, you wouldn't have variations in the human taxonomy.
People can talk all they want but when a critical mass of Navigator owners hangs out at the curb and deliberately plays ground rattling bass tones by Hz label on the display, or verbally threatens dissidents with the well worn phrase "I'm gonna kick your ass," you have to examine the cold hard fact that many of these routines are instilled by per-capita weighted ways of viewing the world that are passed down generationally.
Cultural affinity groups? You all don't even take your own arguments in support of racial segregation seriously.
What is an cultural affinity group? Black Americans are Americans. In fact of every racial group including white folks, black Americans as group can trace their lineage further back on this continent/nation then any other group.
This means black Americans as a group have only been exposed to American culture for many generations, while the vast majority of everyone else's families didn't come here until the last 100years.
And those other groups don't form cultural affinity groups. They come from nations with distinct histories, languages, and cultures. Many of those nations have a brutal and long history of ethnic/culture hatred and war with one another.
These groups supposedly lose and forget those identities and identify with being American, but since black Americans are the most American of any group, why wouldn't they have a cultural affinity for black Americans?
Your last paragraph is pure nonsense and not even a defensible position in support of racially segregated neighborhoods. SMH.
Let's look objectively. Out of every 100,000 black Americans 99,981 aren't murdered in a given year. For white people it's 99,997 aren't murdered in a given year. Those two numbers are 99.984% the same.
In your mind, is that stat is supposed to prove what that those two groups are radically different from one another?
That statistic doesn't show what you believe it shows.
"Racial segregation" will not end until the realities of the economic / social divide between races are changed. Unfortunately too many in the USA do not want to recognize the very tangible realities of black poverty, and the reasons it exists in an age where racism is not socially acceptable. It's an easier argument to call others a racist if they do not want to live next to uneducated, poor, inconsiderate neighbors.
Where do you think upper income blacks live? You think the president is only going to be able to live in the south side of Chicago after his tenure? Do black businessmen live in the ghetto? To think this society is racially segregated is wrong-headed. It ignores the fact that there are many black entrepreneurs and professionals who live in middle and upper class neighborhoods along with other races. To think society is racially segregated based on race begs to believe that only blacks can be poor, and they are destined to stay there. To think that blacks cannot / do not achieve more than section 8 is an insult and is wrong.
Let's say there's a neighborhood that is 95%+ black, has a 30% HS graduation rate, has a 0% college degree attainment, a median household income of half or less of the rest of the city, and sees 30+ homicides a year, dozens upon dozens of rape, robberies, home invasions and so forth. Do you really think it's a good idea to take that and move them into various middle and upper class neighborhoods? What do you think is going to happen?
The minute all of that starts to show up around people with the reef the economicsources to move, people will move. Your beliefs are irrelevant. No preaching or shaming them will make them stay. At some point, a change has to come from within those who are suffering.
Do you really believe racism is behind this segregation today? Or could it possibly be a combination of social disorder and a lack of motivation towards academic and economic success, leading to economic disparity, which is more typically observed along racial lines?
The realities of the economic and social divide amongst Americans along racial lines is maintained by racially segregated neighborhoods.
The idea that poverty rates justifies racial segregation is illogical.
The idea that well to do black Americans live in the same kinds if neighborhoods as well to do white people is just an ignorant uninformed belief on your part. Do done research into racial segregation and housing and the kinds of neighborhoods black and white Americans of similar incomes reside. They are radically different because of racial segregation.
As far as your question, yes it's a much better idea to end racial segregation then to maintain racial segregation.
The only way to say no to ending racial segregation is based on the belief that America's housing policy should protect certain groups who are good and worthy of having good neighborhoods, by sacrificing the lives of tens of millions of other Americans, whom you deem suspect and undeserving if good neighborhoods on the basis of their skin color. This is an untenable position
Middle class Americans don't want to live near welfare seekers of any race. And they won't.Your social engineering attempts will fail. But they should have interesting unintended consequences, including the death of mass transit.
Sure. It's not correct to believe most people with a particular skin color are criminals. However, why does that stereotype exist? If we want to change, we're going to need to look at and understand the realities without shame.
I think it's incorrect to believe that just because you're getting public assistance, housing or otherwise, you must be black. It's wrong in my view to make public housing a black issue. Honestly when somebody appalled at racism brings it up as such, it brings me to wonder if the same stereotypes are running through their minds.
I think it's also incorrect to believe that blacks are never accepted into predominantly white neighborhoods. I don't see many educated black men getting ran out of uptown just because they're black. I don't see whites fleeing it either. This isn't the 60's anymore - people have evolved past that just a little bit. But when it comes to section 8 people, then negatives often rear their ugly head.
I find that many times a lot of people have the same views you do in regards to the stereotypes of black Americans.
Information for you:
Black Americans have always been labeled as criminals, even when our ancestors were enslaved. I don't remember speaking to you about this subject on these forums but I have mentioned it many times (and will continue to mention it as people just don't want to acknowledge) that criminal behavior has always been used as a tactic to prove that blacks are inferior in this country to whites. Our entire country was built upon the premise that whites are superior to black (aka white supremacist ideology). This has permeated every aspect of our society and only recently have some of the barriers been broken down in this regard. White supremacy ideology is still prevalent in our society which is why you believe that black people are more criminally minded than other ethnicities, it seems based solely upon race and not any other socio-economic conditions.
FYI, I finished reading a book called "Souls of Black Folks" by WEB DuBois. This book was published in 1903. In that book Dubois speaks about the stereotypes of blacks being as follows:
Criminals
Uneducated/ignorant
Shifltless/lazy
If you look through this thread and even at your own comments you are perpetuating that stereotype, not black Americans.
FYI, black crime rates have fallen dramatically since the 1970s when housing discrimination was outlawed. Housing discrimination and especially redlining and the fact that black people, due to systematic racism could not obtain traditional mortgages are the main reasons for poverty and crime in black neighborhoods. Neighborhoods that you associate with being bad due to being predominantly black were created by redlining and systematic racism on the local area in every major metropolitan area in this country. See The Case for Reparations. If you can get over the title, you will kind of understand what I am speaking of. Black ghettos were created by the government both at the local and federal level in regards to public housing locations. Crime has fallen over 50% since Fair housing was passed, yet you are still speaking as if there is some sort of crime rampage on the part of black Americans.
FYI, over 70% of black people lived in poverty in the 1950s, many sources state it was over 80%. This was due in part to employment discrimination that did not allow even educated blacks to obtain work in their chosen fields outside of segregated black districts. Black people were shut out of an equal economic society for over 100 years in the country and change did not start to occur on this front until the 1940s at the onset of WW2 and it still took 20-30 years to get to where we are today.
FYI, crime and educational outcomes along with a long list of socioeconomic conditions are related in the USA moreso to the economic condition of the family versus one's racial background.
Fact - black people percentage wise were almost all in poverty at the onset of the 20th century so it is correct in that statistics in regards for black crime would be higher since poverty disproportionately affected my mother and grandmother's generations. I am 36. I was raised in poverty and I consider myself the first generation of our family born entirely "free." The historical racism and lack of economic opportunity for the parents of the kids committing crime today and their grandparents is the reason why statistically crime is higher for blacks, it is not just because they are black. It is directly attributed to systematic racism and our country's adherence to white supremacy ideology.
Fact - ethnic Europeans and poor whites were allowed to grow economically especially after WW2 with FHA backed mortgages that allowed them to move to the suburbs and participate in "white flight." Black Americans were not eligible for FHA loans no matter their credit or career situations because the FHA would not back mortgages in neighborhoods redlined for black Americans, which in many cities was the only places they were allowed to buy homes. Note, this occurred in the north as well as south and out west. The linked article speaks of this situation in Chicago. I am from Ohio in an area not known for intense racial issues, but we also had redling here and my grandparents were severely impacted by redlining and "urban renewal" (aka destroy black business districts and build public housing as the only decent places for blacks to live). So the majority of 20-40 year old black Americans were raised in substandard, poverty stricken neighborhoods and conditions as a result and had to combat with those ills through the 1980s and 1990s when crime peaked.
Fact - black crime decreased when blacks of my own generation grew older and were allowed more educational and economic opporutnity to buy homes in wealthier neighborhoods and when employment opportunities were opened to them.
Final Fact - Black people did not create the stereotypes of us, especially as it relates to crime. Whites created those stereotypes based upon their fears of black people. Whites were the ones rioting and killing blacks who they felt were too successful or "too uppity" in an effort to keep black Americans impoverished. Whites were the ones who thought all black men wanted to rape white women and so they formed a mob mentality in many parts of the country to imprison and lynch black men and their supporters. Whites today are descendents of their white parents and grandparents who held the belief that blacks were inferior and therefore they still hold onto that idea and that is reflected in posts such as the one I quoted which does not take into account the historical causes of the initial ills of Black America nor the fact that crime rates specifically have fallen over 50% and that less than 2% of black people are even arrested in any given year. If 98% of black people do not commit any crime and only .00250% of blacks are convicted of a murder in the 21st century, that does not mean that black Americans are overly criminally minded people?
If you are going to speak of black Americans and crime, you need to know the reasons behind those statistics, what led to them, how have they fallen in the past 25 years, etc.
Also, just another FYI, I work in the public housing arena and I know for a fact that whites outnumber blacks when it comes to Section 8.
Also, that all of you all's fears about the black criminals moving into your neighborhood is misplaced based upon the fact that HUD and local housing authorities build project based units for people with Section 8 predominantly in inner city, predominantly poor communities where they own real estate. They construct new communities - see Chicago's Cabrini Green as an example, and higher income whites move into those areas in most cases, not the other way around.
Middle class Americans don't want to live near welfare seekers of any race. And they won't.Your social engineering attempts will fail. But they should have interesting unintended consequences, including the death of mass transit.
The middle class are also welfare seekers, they too get plenty of government handouts. And what is your issue with mass transit and this nonsense that only the poor use mass transit?
Most likely cities like Martha's Vineyard and Saddlebrook will be exempt, right?
What is really needed is public HUD housing in Mark Zuckerberg's home town of Atherton, CA where the average price of a home is several million. They need the diversity so why aren't they asking for it?
"Racial segregation" will not end until the realities of the economic / social divide between races are changed. Unfortunately too many in the USA do not want to recognize the very tangible realities of black poverty, and the reasons it exists in an age where racism is not socially acceptable. It's an easier argument to call others a racist if they do not want to live next to uneducated, poor, inconsiderate neighbors.
Where do you think upper income blacks live? You think the president is only going to be able to live in the south side of Chicago after his tenure? Do black businessmen live in the ghetto? To think this society is racially segregated is wrong-headed. It ignores the fact that there are many black entrepreneurs and professionals who live in middle and upper class neighborhoods along with other races. To think society is racially segregated based on race begs to believe that only blacks can be poor, and they are destined to stay there. To think that blacks cannot / do not achieve more than section 8 is an insult and is wrong.
Let's say there's a neighborhood that is 95%+ black, has a 30% HS graduation rate, has a 0% college degree attainment, a median household income of half or less of the rest of the city, and sees 30+ homicides a year, dozens upon dozens of rape, robberies, home invasions and so forth. Do you really think it's a good idea to take that and move them into various middle and upper class neighborhoods? What do you think is going to happen?
The minute all of that starts to show up around people with the resources to move, people will move. Your beliefs are irrelevant. No preaching or shaming them will make them stay. At some point, a change has to come from within those who are suffering.
Do you really believe racism is behind this segregation today? Or could it possibly be a combination of social disorder and a lack of motivation towards academic and economic success, leading to economic disparity, which is more typically observed along racial lines?
The majority of upper income blacks live in segregated, predominantly black neighborhoods.
Many black people choose to live in segregated communities just like whites. Many black businessmen live in the ghetto - yes.
Our society is VERY much racially segregated. For you to not see that is kind of odd IMO as it is a well known fact.
In you example, as stated in my response above, what is going to happen to that neighborhood is that HUD is going to encourage the local housing authority to demolish public housing and re-build a new mixed-use/mixed income community. They will temporarily move the residents via vouchers. When the new community is finished, they will invite the residents to come back to the new development. the majority of them will. they will rent out the remaining units to higher income earners and decrease economic segregation and in many cases racial segregation in that particular area (and FWIW, then start a whole series of more trouble with gentrification lol!).
I have seen this same scenario time and time again. Many of the responses to this thread are based on a gut reaction to not wanting blacks to live by them (based on the concept of black inferiority and us being thugs/cirminals) instead of actual facts about these sorts of housing programs.
And FWIW, on self segregation by blacks, it is primarily based upon the fact that black people, including myself as I have self segregated as well in certain places I have lived, do not want to constantly be looked at as criminals or our kids as thugs just because some scaredy person is automatically afraid of black criminals. I am a married mother of 2 and my family is considered "upper income." Yet we live in a working class neighborhood. I find working class people to be nicer than snooty rich people and luckily since I moved back to my hometown, I am fortunate to live in a neighborhood that is not segregated due to the fact that most white people around here aren't afraid of blacks like they are in other parts of the country. Many are, but it is not as evident as other places I have lived.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
