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Old 09-17-2015, 05:56 PM
 
Location: Home is Where You Park It
23,856 posts, read 13,735,298 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mini-apple-less View Post
I've always thought the "Libertarian" movement was really a trojan horse movement to establish a military dictatorship by and for the moneyed elite.
All the libertarians I know are quite sincere. Many of them are anti-military, because big military = big government.
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Old 09-17-2015, 05:58 PM
 
Location: Long Island, NY
19,792 posts, read 13,941,962 times
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I think we have done very well, economically, socially, etc., with democracy.
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Old 09-18-2015, 06:26 AM
 
5,756 posts, read 3,995,901 times
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Saved the world from the likes of Hitler and Tojo there bud!
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Old 09-18-2015, 08:56 AM
 
Location: Iceland
876 posts, read 1,000,715 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dumbdowndemocrats View Post
Saved the world from the likes of Hitler and Tojo there bud!
Because the 27 million Soviets that died had nothing to do with it?
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Old 09-18-2015, 09:15 AM
 
14,292 posts, read 9,673,547 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hakkarin View Post
{snip}

What I want, is a hybrid between democracy and dictatorship where organization is autocratic since it makes it less likely that populist politicians or greedy mobs will ruin everything with bad fiscal policy and greed, but still feature some kind of separation of powers and individual accountability for bad leaders.

Do you share my sentiments?
I think Obama is very close to being in your camp.
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Old 09-18-2015, 12:45 PM
 
5,756 posts, read 3,995,901 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hakkarin View Post
Because the 27 million Soviets that died had nothing to do with it?
Little note there bud they were allied with the Nazi's till Hitler invaded...Poor commies ...what about the Polish people that the Nazi's and Soviets violated that started WW2 in the first place.
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Old 09-18-2015, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Home is Where You Park It
23,856 posts, read 13,735,298 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dumbdowndemocrats View Post
Little note there bud they were allied with the Nazi's till Hitler invaded...Poor commies ...what about the Polish people that the Nazi's and Soviets violated that started WW2 in the first place.
The USSR/Reich alliance was a tactical stopgap for both Stalin and Hitler, who each knew that one of them would have to defeat the other in the foreseeable future. Exactly like the later alliance between the US and the USSR. FDR had no delusions about Stalin, any more than Hitler did.

Politics is necessarily cynical and dishonest at times. None of that takes away from the fact that ordinary Russians were the rocks that broke Hitler's momentum, at massive cost to themselves. He couldn't get through them to get to the oil he needed to keep going.
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Old 09-18-2015, 04:35 PM
 
Location: Proxima Centauri
5,770 posts, read 3,219,640 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hakkarin View Post
I case you have read some of my earlier threads you can probably guess that I am have some bad things to say about democracy in the past. But generally these have just been thoughts or sometimes suggestions on how it can be improved. But I am now at a point where I have just given up on the idea completely. I will just say this outright: I think democracy is a piece of crap that should die in a fire. I think its a terrible, extremely overrated system that doesn't deliver on most of it's promises and in fact creates many of the evils it claims to stop.

I think probably the biggest lie we are told about democracy (or republics, before anybody brings up the democracy vs republic argument) is that it is better than autocracy because unlike the evil autocracy which we are told is anti-individualist and collectivist, democracy generally is pro-individualist and pro-liberty. Well, this is giant load of ass.

For starts, let's take a look at how the individual can make his voice be heard in a democracy. He does this by voting. Either a leader (republic), or specific policy (direct democracy). But the thing is, an individual's vote doesn't matter in the bigger scheme of things. You can be the smartest person in the world, but your voice/vote will always only be one out of countless others, and once smart votes and dumb votes have balanced each other out every voting result will be some kind of a mediocre average. You as an individual and what you think, doesn't matter. There is no democratic will of the individual, only the will of the collective. This is anti-individualist.

But it isn't just anti-individualist, it's also anti-rationalist as well. Not everybody is as good at making a educated guess at what would be good for society. Some voters are smart, others are dumb, and some or so so. But the end result is always the same: Once all voter groups have balanced each other out the end result is the mediocre average of all groups aka mediocrity.

I know what some of you may be thinking. "Who are you to talk about others being dumb, are you so much smarter eh?". Yes. Call me elitist all you want, but the fact of the matter is I actually care about the world I live in. I won't claim to be the smartest person in the world or that my opinions are always correct, but even if nothing else I at least try to stay reasonably informed about economic and social issues, which is more than what can be said about most people it seems. Most people just don't give a ****...

But ok, so democracy may be anti-rationlist and anti-individualist, but at least it does well when it comes to protecting liberty and property right? Nope.

It has come to my attention that the people who scream the most for moar democracy are generally the same people who lust for other peoples stuff. For the greedy, democracy is a trojan horse which they use to justify the stealing of other peoples wealth and property without justification other than pure greed. And even in a society where democracy isn't direct, it's always very tempting for politicians to buy voters with other people's wealth. The end result, is that it really sucks to own decent property or wealth in a democracy, and that fiscal policy becomes very very bad. Democracy eats itself from within in the long term as the mob gets more and more greedy and people see a less of a reason to build wealth and property for themselves knowing it will just be taken away.

I know this might sound extreme to some, but I honestly think strong property rights are more important than a democracy. In a literal sense. If my society decided right now to abolish private property but make everything 100% democratic instead, I would rather just move to China. The reason for this, is that political freedom without economic freedom is worthless. Why be a slave to the collective in a collectivist democracy when I could be more free in a individualist dictatorship? Property rights matter more than political rights.

This is the moment in time where someone will come and say "well if democracy sucks so hard what do you want instead? Dictatorship? Democracy may be flawed but it's the best thing we have!". This is a logical fallacy. Yes, it's the best thing we have RIGHT NOW. But we seriously need a third alternative. If we don't find one, then democracy will suicide itself.

What I want, is a hybrid between democracy and dictatorship where organization is autocratic since it makes it less likely that populist politicians or greedy mobs will ruin everything with bad fiscal policy and greed, but still feature some kind of separation of powers and individual accountability for bad leaders.

Do you share my sentiments?
The world tried Communism. That was a farce. The world tried Fascism. That was war by racism. The Italians saying that they were the greatest he men in the world. Hitler had his Aryan ideal. This led to the near extermination of a group that could have brought Germany into the space age by 1950.

Expressing our views is one of the characteristics of a Democracy.
I will ask you this in closing. Are you testing the waters to see if an American dialect of Fascism is within the mores and norms of our modern American culture?
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Old 09-18-2015, 04:39 PM
 
Location: Proxima Centauri
5,770 posts, read 3,219,640 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mini-apple-less View Post
I've always thought the "Libertarian" movement was really a trojan horse movement to establish a military dictatorship by and for the moneyed elite.
Good point?
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Old 09-18-2015, 04:45 PM
 
Location: Proxima Centauri
5,770 posts, read 3,219,640 times
Reputation: 6105
To answer your statements honestly. I think that Democracy is a sort of a pressure release valve. It worked in the nineteen thirties because Roosevelt employed a heavy dose of Keynesian economics. France in the seventeen nineties had no such pressure release valve. Look what happened to the rich under the Reign of Terror.
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