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a) Last year is nothing. You need to look to at least last 20 years (since Perestroika) to get a handle of the picture.
Hey, I agree with you. But currently Putin is building up the military and wanting to be a threat. That is today.
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Originally Posted by brrabbit
b) The split in Ukraine is not pseudo. You can witness it even among Ukrainians living in USA. Western Ukrainians are catholics and their language is heavily influenced by Polish too. Eastern Ukrainians are orthodox and their language is influenced by Russian (as well as Southern Russian language is well influenced by Ukrainian language to a point where the difference is very minor). The history of 20th century and the attitude toward Russia is different between Eastern and Western parts of Ukraine. The economic ties are also different, eastern Ukraine is more industrialized and tied to Russia, while Western Ukraine is more agricultural and less dependent on Russian subsidies on electricity and gas.
The fact is that Russia is supplying one side with weapons and I believe soldiers. This is not good.
Frankly I have no problem with the Russian annexation of Crimea but what is is doing in Ukraine is troubling and I feel it is scary for some of the former members of the Iron Curtain. This drives these nations to NATO and I do not see a problem with that.
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Originally Posted by brrabbit
I did not challenge the fact that during the 20th century Communist Party and Soviet Union led to more deaths in total, than what was caused by Germans during 5 years of war. I heard 100 millions died in total, out of which 20 million died during WW2 (and therefore can be attributed to Germans).
Not all of the Soviet WWII casualties can be attributed to the Germans. The Russians did kill many of their own. Also even if Germany had not invaded Russia I think Russia would have invaded Germany. Two nations were looking for a fight.
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Originally Posted by brrabbit
However, when you blame Russians on killing more people than Nazis, you made a mistake.
Ummmm....no I did not.
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Originally Posted by brrabbit
Russians were killed by Communists among which were all nations. Look who were leaders of the Communist party and Police force at the time and think again if you should blame Russian people for that -
Isn't Putin a direct descendant of this communist leadership? Isn't that part if his appeal in Russia?
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Originally Posted by brrabbit
Party leaders: Lenin (half-jew by mother, russian by father) / Trostky (Jew) / Stalin (Georgian)
NKVD leaders: Dzerzinsky (Polish)/ Menzhinsky (Polish) / Yagoda (Jewish)/ Ezhov (no information about his childhood, but he spoke Latvian and Polish...) / Beria (Georgian)...
So, be careful which nation to blame for the death of 100 million people, of whom most were Russian and Ukrainian.
Hey, I am just pointing out facts. You may think semantics change that but in my eyes it does not. Especially since Russians seem to support a man that is from that old establishment.
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Originally Posted by brrabbit
Some people considered WW2 as continuation of Civil War and Civil War as continuation of WW1. Similarly, as you can consider riots and Jim Crow laws and casualities/hostilities before the South was readmitted to the Union as a continuation of American Civil War, even if it was officially over in 1865. Same thing with "Collectivization" and "Great Purge" in Russia.
I do not see the similarity in scale or actions. But I understand the need to try to validate the death of a 100 million people in the twentieth century by the death of around 300,000 Americans in the nineteenth.
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Originally Posted by brrabbit
As far as shooting at retreating troops, or interrogation of POW, it was not quite uncommon practice at the time. The brutality of the war demanded many of those things to happen in order to out-power all-mighty Wermacht (remember, it took only 40 days to overtake France which is another european superpower for centuries)... Although, most POWs or soldiers who were outflanked and behind enemy lines for some time, were interrogated, but not shot. As well as losses during the war itself, were most civilian losses on the lands occupied by germans, or losses in combat. Those cases you had mentioned were a symbolic occurences at best during the most devastating times, but not regular practice. Obviously, there were deaths from starvation in Siberia, etc. But even those deaths were caused by War and the need to relocate industry out east and rebuild it for production.
Stalin is not the saint you would like to believe him to be. He actually made Hitler look like an amateur.
The US beat them to it by 5 months. Tantamount to declaring that a war has been going on for some time. One can look at the list of countries where governments have fallen over the last twenty-five years and make a reasonable guess who has been on the warpath.
Pentagon: Russia poses ‘existential threat’ to the US once again
The US beat them to it by 5 months. Tantamount to declaring that a war has been going on for some time. One can look at the list of countries where governments have fallen over the last twenty-five years and make a reasonable guess who has been on the warpath.
Pentagon: Russia poses ‘existential threat’ to the US once again
Russia has always posed an existential threat to the US, just as we have to them. That people thought otherwise is because they had their head in the sand or denied it for political purposes.
Russia has always posed an existential threat to the US, just as we have to them. That people thought otherwise is because they had their head in the sand or denied it for political purposes.
Really? After the fall of the Soviet Union Russia was not a threat and I would even say they are not a threat to the US now.
Hey, I agree with you. But currently Putin is building up the military and wanting to be a threat. That is today.
The fact is that Russia is supplying one side with weapons and I believe soldiers. This is not good.
US did the same in Nicaragua and Panama at the end of 20st century. Was it good then?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard
Frankly I have no problem with the Russian annexation of Crimea but what is is doing in Ukraine is troubling and I feel it is scary for some of the former members of the Iron Curtain. This drives these nations to NATO and I do not see a problem with that.
It's not Russian regular army which is fighting. If there's no real divide in Ukrainian community, there would be no war. When Yanukovich was trying to suppress political protests in Kiev and seemed to be winning, Western Ukraine threatened to separate from Ukraine and it was acceptable to the West. Once pro-western politicians gained power there, Eastern Ukraine wanted to separate and they were called rebel separatists and Ukrainian army was sent to suppress their discontent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard
Not all of the Soviet WWII casualties can be attributed to the Germans. The Russians did kill many of their own. Also even if Germany had not invaded Russia I think Russia would have invaded Germany. Two nations were looking for a fight.
Not all, but what would be your estimate? I don't think it goes even to 19 millions - 1 million. I don't think it was that bad. Once the war was going, there were no mass deportations (other than "Russian Germans" and "Chechens"), quite opposite - many people previously deported or put into GULAG had opportunity to go out and join the army. I mean don't get me wrong, each government would kill some amount of people even in the time of peace, and more so in the time of war, I'm just saying Communist Government was not executing its citizens on a mass scale during the war.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard
Isn't Putin a direct descendant of this communist leadership? Isn't that part if his appeal in Russia?
Hey, I am just pointing out facts. You may think semantics change that but in my eyes it does not. Especially since Russians seem to support a man that is from that old establishment.
Putin is definitely not a communist. He never wanted to take down all the wealthy people and expropriate their wealth and distribute it among poor people. I mean former head of KGB had to be at some point in time a Communist Party member, but 99% of them did it for career reasons and not because they truly believed in it. So, once it was no longer required, he stopped pretending to be a communist.
Russian Society is built on the premises that "order" is more important than democracy, and "common good" is more important than "individual right". Putin offered that order in exchange of democracy. After all, democracy ain't that sweet when all the fruits of it are divided among gangsters of different shades.
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Originally Posted by Old Guard
Stalin is not the saint you would like to believe him to be. He actually made Hitler look like an amateur.
Stalin was a mild man compared to Lenin and Trotsky. Yet, the country willingly fought through the revolution and civil war. So, the society before the revolution must be truly intolerable to them... And Stalin obviously had a certain mandate to continue what Lenin and Trotsky started.
Not saying he was a nice man. Nice men don't stay on top for too long even if they get there in the first place.
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Originally Posted by Old Guard
BTW do you live in the United States?
As a matter of fact, yes. And I'm proud to be a US citizen and have Russian origin. Is it relevant?
Yea their nuclear arsenal evaporated immediately after the fall of the USSR. poof!
They had those nukes and still collapsed because they could not keep up with the US. Gorbachev announced that he would withdraw Soviet troops from Afghanistan, and he reduced the Soviet military presence in the Warsaw Pact nations of Eastern Europe. After the fall of the Soviet Union the Russian military was in decline and not in parity with the US. Even now the Soviet Union is not a serious threat to the US.
Well there you go. You had a choice and chose the better country.
Sure. But it doesn't make Russia bad per se. It just USA happened to be a better country for me. I just love firearms and second amendment and individual rights too dearly.
Sure. But it doesn't make Russia bad per se. It just USA happened to be a better country for me. I just love firearms and second amendment and individual rights too dearly.
Wha? Wait? They do not have those in the great country of Russia?
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Sure. But it doesn't make Russia bad per se. It just USA happened to be a better country for me. I just love firearms and second amendment and individual rights too dearly.