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I had this talk with my boys when they got to around 16 years old. Told them that not only is sex outside of marriage a sin, there are terrible ramifications that last a long time for 30 seconds of fun.
Your argument doesn't make sense. A woman has the right to choose whether or not she herself will bear the consequences of her actions not others. She can take responsibility. If she has issue with childbirth that's a problem between her and nature or evolution or whatever you want to call it. Should the man skirt his duty then that is his decision.
Childbirth is the decision of the mother to even allow it to happen. She doesn't have the right to force others to go along with her decision.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but if you burp your own worm, there won't be any of that, so no worries. Right?
Without even looking it up, I feel pretty safe stating: women of child bearing age, actively practice birth control orders of magnitude more then their male counterparts.
Indeed they do practice birth control, I'm not convinced on your claims as to numbers, that said I probably have significantly different experiences than you. Thanks for agreeing with the statement, you do not believe women are not competent, nor do I (which is why the statement was a question), however the only logical and rational conclusion to be made of many statements people make is that women bear zero responsibility for becoming pregnant, and it is entirely because of a failure in (or lack of) male contraception.
That said why the discrepancy in the choices of unwanted pregnancy?
If both bear equal responsibility, then rationally there should be equal outcomes. If there are unequal outcomes it's purely for reasons other than the rational.
While people can state women need support raising kids, and they may, we're not discussing child rearing, but choices for dealing with unwanted pregnancies, and as yet there is no child rearing and there will not be for months. If a woman chooses to take responsibility for that pregnancy and plans on raising that child, then that is her choice and her responsibility, if she chooses not to, then again her choice and her responsibility. However the law requires that a man also assumes responsibility for that choice, but no choice was extended to that man, and in elective termination he should not, as the impacts are not on him. If a choice was extended to men, then women can determine a choice based on that additional information too, and take responsibility for that choice, just the same.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but if you burp your own worm, there won't be any of that, so no worries. Right?
If we take that to it's logical conclusion, then as I said above in post #47, we've solved the abortion debate, as the sole purpose for an abortion would be on medical grounds.
Let's be honest, every heterosexual relationship requires the participation of at least one person of either sex and the actual numbers will average out at 50-50. If all men are burping their own worms, then there is no requirement for elective termination.
Viewing support as a 'punishment to men' is a real deadbeat way to look at things imo.[/quote]
Not dead beat but dead broke. When you have a situation where the court orders a monthly sum based on "earning potential" rather than actual, monthly earnings a man is faced with mounting child support debt he will never be able to pay and makes a man go "underground" when half his pay is deducted.
And on the flip side the mother can spend half of the child support on herself instead of the child and there is no accounting accountability required..
Then the man is taken to jail and while in jail without a job the child supprt is still racking up with interest and now with a record he has even less of a chance of landing a job.
Dont have sex with people you're not married to............ problem solved
There have been cases where the wife cheated, got pregnant by another man and the husband was considered the legal father just because they were married at the time.....
Indeed they do practice birth control, I'm not convinced on your claims as to numbers, that said I probably have significantly different experiences than you. Thanks for agreeing with the statement, you do not believe women are not competent, nor do I (which is why the statement was a question), however the only logical and rational conclusion to be made of many statements people make is that women bear zero responsibility for becoming pregnant, and it is entirely because of a failure in (or lack of) male contraception.
That said why the discrepancy in the choices of unwanted pregnancy?
If both bear equal responsibility, then rationally there should be equal outcomes. If there are unequal outcomes it's purely for reasons other than the rational.
While people can state women need support raising kids, and they may, we're not discussing child rearing, but choices for dealing with unwanted pregnancies, and as yet there is no child rearing and there will not be for months. If a woman chooses to take responsibility for that pregnancy and plans on raising that child, then that is her choice and her responsibility, if she chooses not to, then again her choice and her responsibility. However the law requires that a man also assumes responsibility for that choice, but no choice was extended to that man, and in elective termination he should not, as the impacts are not on him. If a choice was extended to men, then women can determine a choice based on that additional information too, and take responsibility for that choice, just the same.
So why is this even controversial?
All the Red-Pillers in this discussion are trying to define some sort of relationship between the fact that women have the sole choice between abortion or not, and the fact that contributing partners are responsible for a child they help, accidentally or otherwise, create. There. Is. No. Relationship. Between. The. Two. Women do not have one scintilla more body autonomy then men do. Men are just as sovereign over their own bodies as women are.
As to the unrelated issue of child support, men always have the option of requesting 50% child custody. Only a small percentage do. My wife had two kids with her first husband, he was awarded 50% custody, the children spent alternating weeks at each parent, and after the math was done for income disparity, she received a check from him every month for...$15.
Child support is for the benefit of the child. End of story. It's a fact of biology that men have no control over what happens to their sperm once it enters a woman's body and current laws are geared toward ensuring that any resulting child does not land on welfare rolls.
All the Red-Pillers in this discussion are trying to define some sort of relationship between the fact that women have the sole choice between abortion or not, and the fact that contributing partners are responsible for a child they help, accidentally or otherwise, create. There. Is. No. Relationship. Between. The. Two. Women do not have one scintilla more body autonomy then men do. Men are just as sovereign over their own bodies as women are.
Not at all, I just happen to give people credit for being responsible for themselves. That covers both men and women. Unless there is a demonstrated and documented history of making negligent and incompetent decisions, then I assume people are competent, regardless of their gender. I'm also not giving any more credence to women having more competence. Which is why I do not understand the controversy about permitting a legal means for men to remove any consequences of a decision they play no part in. If this were the situation, then women could deal with it, the same way that men deal with it as it currently stands, but it is an even playing field, both parties have a more equal say in whatever outcome occurs.
There is no child. We're discussing a situation prior to there being one in any legal sense. It's entirely at a period where a decision can be made to continue an unwanted pregnancy, or, not. If the decision is made unilaterally by a woman that she wishes to have the child, but that is not the same wish of the father, then why should the father be held financially responsible for that decision? He can determine his relationship with the potential progeny, as can the potential mother. Both can make informed decisions about their futures. As I stated, I don't think that men should have any say in whether or not a termination is performed, what I do think is that in cases where one is not, and they disagree with that decision, that they can legally remove any financial responsibility in law, with any terms necessary to avoid that responsibility (so no living with the mother of his kid, if he did that he would fall liable for all past and future child support).
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjski
As to the unrelated issue of child support, men always have the option of requesting 50% child custody. Only a small percentage do. My wife had two kids with her first husband, he was awarded 50% custody, the children spent alternating weeks at each parent, and after the math was done for income disparity, she received a check from him every month for...$15.
Indeed they do, but that is not the point of contention. The point of contention is that in cases of unwanted pregnancy women hold all the cards and can make any decision they so desire, and men are expected to have no say, and are financially liable for the decision that a woman may make. If women want to take responsibility, then they need to take responsibility, that means being responsible, having someone to pay for your decision, is not being responsible.
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