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It's clear liberal's and conservative's have completely different visions for America. So it's no surprise one side is unhappy when the other side gains ground for their agenda.
In one word or phrase, and without judging the other side, how would you describe two groups with opposite political agendas each trying to impose their political, social and economic visions on one country?
I would describe it as one group sees Government as a necessary and key part in the operation of society. A group that is willing to cede certain freedoms and/liberties in return for certain guarantees or security.
I would describe the other group as viewing Government as intrusive and a "necessary evil" that must be kept as small as possible to perform specifically designated tasks, with the understanding that by limiting the footprint of Government, the corresponding freedom/liberty means that there is no fall back position or "safety net" if your decisions in life are mistakes.
One group views the role of Government as a charitable clearinghouse that collects funds and distributes them to the those in need and in areas that the Government sees as the most in need of assistance. This group sees the government as an advocate for those in society who need a voice.
One group views the government as taking away money that is earned by one person or group and determining how and where that money should go. This group sees the government as taking away the control of the person to decide how and where to spend their earnings, thus taking away their voice.
But what if you're a logical, rational, consistent adult who understands that binding contracts rely on two (at least) parties consenting to the terms without a gun (or threat of) to the head of either party?
Just pretend the state is a legit entity and ignore the reality that it's a fictional social construct like the Easter Bunny?
That is a serious issue, since the "Contract" that extends to every person born on this soil or born to someone who was born on this soil, is the Constitution. As a citizen, each of us is bound at birth to the protections afforded under the constitution. Yet this contract has been altered and reinterpreted for at least a century without our ability to voice our opinion about those changes.
I completely agree with your question. That is why I hate SSI. I was forced into an agreement at birth that my income would be forced (by the power of the state) from me and into the hands of the Government with the "guarantee" that I would be protected with those funds in my old age. I was never given the opportunity to opt into that contract. I have no guarantee that the money I have been forced to pay into this fund will even be available to me when I retire. I could die before I am able to retire. The age I can retire has increased for me and those who will follow me, etc. Meaning that I am bound to a contract I never signed that has ever changing terms that I cannot dispute and ultimately, neither I nor may family have any recourse to recover those funds I paid in, should I die before I am "eligible" to start receiving the funds I earned and were confiscated.
For a nation of laws, we surely have screwed ourselves!!
For starters, it's painfully clear that many republican and democrats don't even oppose the other sides views or really have that strong of views themselves other than party allegiance.
Secondly, many voters don't even have a party affiliation and once the primaries end you're going to stop hearing the silly partisan rhetoric (lies) that you and others seem to gullibly fall for and more middle-of-the-road stuff.
For example, tell me that Hillary has an opposite agenda from Republicans with regards to corporations, Wall Street etc? Lie to me.
I'm not going to challenge you on this. I sincerely hope you're right and it all is a lie and we are all more in agreement than we appear.
That is a serious issue, since the "Contract" that extends to every person born on this soil or born to someone who was born on this soil, is the Constitution. As a citizen, each of us is bound at birth to the protections afforded under the constitution. Yet this contract has been altered and reinterpreted for at least a century without our ability to voice our opinion about those changes.
I completely agree with your question. That is why I hate SSI. I was forced into an agreement at birth that my income would be forced (by the power of the state) from me and into the hands of the Government with the "guarantee" that I would be protected with those funds in my old age. I was never given the opportunity to opt into that contract. I have no guarantee that the money I have been forced to pay into this fund will even be available to me when I retire. I could die before I am able to retire. The age I can retire has increased for me and those who will follow me, etc. Meaning that I am bound to a contract I never signed that has ever changing terms that I cannot dispute and ultimately, neither I nor may family have any recourse to recover those funds I paid in, should I die before I am "eligible" to start receiving the funds I earned and were confiscated.
For a nation of laws, we surely have screwed ourselves!!
Interesting perspective, yours...
Curious if you realize what ability you/we have to voice your/our opinion about your complaint(s) is pretty well stipulated in that same Constitution we all hold so dearly. That Constitution explains how you will entrust your interests in these regards to government representatives elected, again as stipulated in the Constitution.
Also, just for the sake of a bit more broader or different perspective, I too have been forced to pay into SSI just like a good many other things we are taxed to make possible, from our national security (military) to public education, but when it comes to SSI in particular, I view that as a contribution toward keeping old folks all around me from walking the streets without shelter, not so much to get that money back in my pocket at old age, although that would be nice too...
Name anything the government does that you don't support...you're being forced to pay for that.
You have to remember, as inconvenient as it might be, we are all free to renounce our citizenship and leave if we want. So, technically and legally, we're not forced. We're free to leave at any time and not be subjected to any legislation we deem intolerable.
Agreed, although I'm not even sure we all want the same things. Seems a lot of people would like this country to be all Christian and white with no immigrants (no more anyway), just for starters...
In 2008 Hillary supporters were called racists during the primaries.
Heck, you can probably find old threads about it around here.
Even Bill Clinton wasn't immune from being accused.
So, you realize that I have to take any racism claims from Hillary supporters because the Obama supporters have already identified them as racists themselves.
I'm not going to challenge you on this. I sincerely hope you're right and it all is a lie and we are all more in agreement than we appear.
Let me give you a perfect real-world example to back up my comments.
Chief Justice Roberts was up for the supreme court. My household got FUNDRAISER requests in the mail from the democrats (Ted Kennedy and others) saying he'd end abortion....AND from republicans saying he'd also end abortion and to send money if we were pro-life.
The reality was that they were portraying the confirmation dishonestly to secure support ($$$) from their respective bases. In reality they almost unanimously confirmed the guy and Roberts changed nothing with regards to Roe v. Wade.
The polarization and rancor are often just a dog and pony show to secure money or votes from the moronic bases while the reality is a different thing altogether.
The political theatre aimed at parting $$$ and votes from loyalist morons is the lie.
But what if you're a logical, rational, consistent adult who understands that binding contracts rely on two (at least) parties consenting to the terms without a gun (or threat of) to the head of either party?
Just pretend the state is a legit entity and ignore the reality that it's a fictional social construct like the Easter Bunny?
I don't understand your point. Are you saying that groups of people who band together and use self determination with the goal of a better life has no more legitimacy than a child's fairy story?
Well its been happening for around 5000 years with demonstrable results so I would disagree.
In 2008 Hillary supporters were called racists during the primaries.
Heck, you can probably find old threads about it around here.
Even Bill Clinton wasn't immune from being accused.
So, you realize that I have to take any racism claims from Hillary supporters because the Obama supporters have already identified them as racists themselves.
Not sure I understand your comment or point or even if you are agreeing with me or not, but either way, of course there are plenty of racist still in this country and those accused of being racist and those not really racist at all. For what any of that is worth anyway.
My point again is that not all Americans want the same thing let alone agreed on how to best accomplish our shared goals...
You have to remember, as inconvenient as it might be, we are all free to renounce our citizenship and leave if we want. So, technically and legally, we're not forced. We're free to leave at any time and not be subjected to any legislation we deem intolerable.
Incorrect and a logical fallacy.
If you never consented to your citizenship (unless you believe in the "social contract" where immediately upon exiting the birth canal consent has been given despite your cognitive abilities being zilch) why would you need to "renounce" it?
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