Is Christian America a better America? (Congress, lawyers, independence, crime)
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I think America's strongest, best and most enduring values are -- freedom, reason, tolerance. These were the values of our liberal (in their day) founding fathers, and these are the values we should keep. Are these Christian values? Not necessarily, although they are not incompatible with Christianity.
George Washington was a Christian. He adhered to these values. In fact, he expressed them eloquently in a letter he wrote to the Jewish community in Newport, Rhode Island. Here's a passage:
The United States has “a Government which to bigotry gives no sanction, to persecution no assistance—but generously affording to All liberty of conscience, and immunities of citizenship: - deeming every one, of whatever nation, tongue or language equal parts of the great Governmental Machine: – This so ample and extensive federal union whose basis is Philanthropy, mutual confidence, and public virtue, we cannot but acknowledge to be the work of the Great God, who ruleth the Armies of Heaven, and among the Inhabitants of the Earth, doing whatsoever seemeth [to Him] good.”
Given these sentiments, it's easy to see what side of the debate he'd be on today on whether or not we should fully embrace the Muslim American community.
Without Christianity, there is no America. It is just a bunch of corporations and Hollywood, a big shopping-mall full of degeneracy and decadence.
In any case, what is the point of talking about "better"? What do you mean by better? Better at what exactly? On what basis could you possibly argue that anything is better than anything else? Any attempt at defining "good" or "better" without some objective standard, is nothing but conjecture and pseudo-science, which itself is based purely on social-conditioning.
Basically, without god, there is no objective standard of which to judge good or better. And any attempts to the contrary become an exercise in absurdity.
I think America's strongest, best and most enduring values are -- freedom, reason, tolerance. These were the values of our liberal (in their day) founding fathers, and these are the values we should keep. Are these Christian values? Not necessarily, although they are not incompatible with Christianity.
George Washington was a Christian. He adhered to these values. In fact, he expressed them eloquently in a letter he wrote to the Jewish community in Newport, Rhode Island. Here's a passage:
The United States has “a Government which to bigotry gives no sanction, to persecution no assistance—but generously affording to All liberty of conscience, and immunities of citizenship: - deeming every one, of whatever nation, tongue or language equal parts of the great Governmental Machine: – This so ample and extensive federal union whose basis is Philanthropy, mutual confidence, and public virtue, we cannot but acknowledge to be the work of the Great God, who ruleth the Armies of Heaven, and among the Inhabitants of the Earth, doing whatsoever seemeth [to Him] good.”
Given these sentiments, it's easy to see what side of the debate he'd be on today on whether or not we should fully embrace the Muslim American community.
That post was going great until you detoured off into Bizarro World with the last sentence. George Washington fully embracing Muslim America eh? OK...
That post was going great until you detoured off into Bizarro World with the last sentence. George Washington fully embracing Muslim America eh? OK...
Embracing the Jewish community was very progressive for its day, Dark. I have zero doubts that the founding fathers would protect the civil liberties of Muslim Americans today. They would not favor religious based immigration quotas. America was not designed to be a "Christian" nation or as historical revisionist now say "Judaeo Christian" nation. It was established as a religious neutral nation.
Our values can best be summed up as freedom, reason and tolerance. Any religious values that don't conflict with these are welcome too.
Without Christianity, there is no America. It is just a bunch of corporations and Hollywood, a big shopping-mall full of degeneracy and decadence.
Basically, without god, there is no objective standard of which to judge good or better. And any attempts to the contrary become an exercise in absurdity.
First of all there are countries which have NO religion that fair much better then ours. And some of those mega churches are bigger then some malls. Second, IF you need religion to understand the difference between right & wrong then I feel sorry for you.
First of all there are countries which have NO religion that fair much better then ours. And some of those mega churches are bigger then some malls. Second, IF you need religion to understand the difference between right & wrong then I feel sorry for you.
I have no idea what you even mean by "fair better"? Do you mean, they are richer than us?
In any case, you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. There is no America without Christianity. That doesn't mean there won't continue to be "lines on a map" with the label "America"; But without objective values on which America stands, what is America? And why would it continue to be?
Without religion, America becomes the same as every other country which embraces the same values. And what are those values? Consumerism/materialism. A one-world government of corporations.
As for the mega churches. I agree with you, those Christians don't read the bible, or they cherry-pick like crazy. They are certainly worshiping mammon, not god.
I have no idea what you even mean by "fair better"? Do you mean, they are richer than us?
In any case, you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. There is no America without Christianity. That doesn't mean there won't continue to be "lines on a map" with the label "America"; But without objective values on which America stands, what is America? And why would it continue to be?
Without religion, America becomes the same as every other country which embraces the same values. And what are those values? Consumerism/materialism. A one-world government of corporations.
Less crime for one better living better health better schools. We've already surpassed a lot of counties when it comes to being corrupt. So religion doesn't make us better then anyone else, if that's what your getting at.
George Washington was a Christian. He adhered to these values. In fact, he expressed them eloquently in a letter he wrote to the Jewish community in Newport, Rhode Island. Here's a passage:
The United States has “a Government which to bigotry gives no sanction, to persecution no assistance—but generously affording to All liberty of conscience, and immunities of citizenship: - deeming every one, of whatever nation, tongue or language equal parts of the great Governmental Machine: – This so ample and extensive federal union whose basis is Philanthropy, mutual confidence, and public virtue, we cannot but acknowledge to be the work of the Great God, who ruleth the Armies of Heaven, and among the Inhabitants of the Earth, doing whatsoever seemeth [to Him] good.”
^^^ The actual letter is on display in the National Museum of American Jewish History on Independence Mall in Philadelphia.
Embracing the Jewish community was very progressive for its day, Dark. I have zero doubts that the founding fathers would protect the civil liberties of Muslim Americans today. They would not favor religious based immigration quotas. America was not designed to be a "Christian" nation or as historical revisionist now say "Judaeo Christian" nation. It was established as a religious neutral nation.
Our values can best be summed up as freedom, reason and tolerance. Any religious values that don't conflict with these are welcome too.
Nice revisionist history there. America was, at its founding, probably the most-religious nation in the world, and it remained one of the most-religious nations in the world, into the 20th century. Obviously almost all of our laws were based on Christian values, and almost all the founders argued that America couldn't remain virtuous and free without religion, specifically a common Christian religion.
The concept of separation of church and state, only applied to the Federal government when the Constitution was ratified. The first amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
This was because the states varied religiously. From the puritans in New England, to the Quakers in Pennsylvania, to the ex-Anglicans in the Mid-Atlantic states, to the Baptists in the south. And yes, the New England states continued to have effectively "State Churches" or "State-sponsored religion" for several decades after our founding. As well as "religious tests", and for that matter, we continue to "Swear on the Bible" in courts to this day.
That isn't to say that every founder was a religious fundamentalist. Most were religious moderates. But by no means did they imagine the complete abolition of religion from the government as most modern atheists want to believe.
Their purpose was to prevent the clergy from having direct-power over government. Prior to the separation of Church and State, laws were supposed to be "god's laws", and thus, the validity of laws, instead of going to the legislature, or the courts, or the King, went to the clergy. John Locke basically "invented" America, and he wanted a "separation of powers", so that the government could check the power of the clergy, and vice-versa.
The idea of separation of powers, is that you have more than one "class" of people, who have a desire to check the power of the other class/classes. But, in America, the three branches of government, are all members of the same class, lawyers/politicians.
The idea that our three branches of government check the power of each other, is laughable. At best, they slow each other down.
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