What are these special and magical freedoms that only the US possesses? (attorney, March)

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by chielgirl

The US also limits speech.

I don't think that freedom of speech should be unlimited.
Speeches that incite hate should be forbidden.

[chielgirl]

Tricky, what would that look like? If I'm offended, I'll say that it incited hate. That's slippery. I understand what you're saying, but how would you do that?

_______

Originally Posted by Frank_Carbonni

It is much deeper than strictly trade and the US tried to assassinate Castro because many policy makers felt he was a threat to US interests. Plus, considering his human rights record and his suggestions that the USSR launch a first strike against the US, I wouldn't consider it a bad thing if they did succeed.

Unfortunately, people like you are in power – try looking at your own country before you start deciding whether others should live or not. It was because of US actions that Castro reached out to the USSR. I'm rather neutral about Castro, but wishing anyone dead is unwarranted in this world. As I've stated many times, I'm a pacifist.

Originally Posted by Frank_Carbonni

My point isn't that it is right or acceptable, because it is not, but rather that the actions of the US are usually taken out of context and that the US is held to a higher standard.

The US PR is that it is better than all other countries, so it doesn’t measure up when looked at. They’re a victim of their own PR. Look at some of the posters here, the America love it or leave it crowd. They’re as much the culprit.

Originally Posted by Frank_Carbonni

The School of the Americas was during the height of the Cold War, people trained in (among other things) torture and counter-intelligence. Yes, much of it was wrong, but you have to see what the rest of the world was doing as well. It's not like the Soviets didn't have their own versions of the School of the Americas and it is not like there weren't spies and guerrilla groups that were supported by the USSR that were trained with their version and committed similar crimes.

Again, you’re an apologist. It’s okay that we teach torture, because others are doing it, too. Nyah nyah.

Originally Posted by Frank_Carbonni

Like I said, it is not right. I would just like to see more criticism of other countries as well. It burns me when people the US a police state (trust me, I can assure you that we would agree on the PATRIOT ACT) when not only dictatorships are actual police states, but many First World countries like the UK, Australia, Spain, etc. have either enacted their own versions of the PATRIOT ACT in response to 9/11 or have had similar laws long before the US does.

You’re doing the bogus comparison again.
If you want to hear about other countries, please start your own thread. That’s not the OP for this one.

Originally Posted by Frank_Carbonni

I suppose my main beef is that many criticisms of the United States boil down to "America's not perfect". It's is almost like many critics seem to believe that since the United States isn't free of questionable foreign policy, crime, poverty, and lousy pop culture, that it is somehow a horrible place to live and its motives are always sinister. It's also coupled with a complete ignorance of other countries as well, for instance a few months back I was reading an abortion debate on this forum I occasionally frequent and this Australian poster (who is post-graduate student studying to become neurosurgeon) was going on about how progressive Australia is compared to the United States, I informed him that Australia doesn't have a Bill of Rights or any real restrictions on government power beyond custom, that Australian abortion laws are actually far more restrictive than in US, that many prisoners in Australia are there for non-violent drug offenses, and I provided links. Here was an intelligent (I have read his posts for several years), educated, and rational man who assumed his country was so much better off than the US because he is ignorant of his own country. That's the way of the world, many European countries have more restrictions on abortion than the US, most European countries have laws against Hate Speech and criticizing government symbols and Heads of State, the UK and many other European countries rate worse for government violations of privacy than the US, etc.

The US is an arrogant bully. When we’re not being a bully, we’re trying to buy loyalty. But only if you don’t talk about birth control, don’t teach people how NOT to contract AIDS or other diseases. It's a control issue. Where are the resources that we'll benefit from? The US is not altruistic.

No one is saying that the US is a horrible place to live. But if you’re going to flap your wings and start crowing about how great you are, you’re going to be slapped down.

Try some statistics for your comments, please.

So we torture and throw people in Guantanamo and other jails throughout the world with no charges. This is being done in the name of US citizenry and I find it offensive. Not in my name. Even when caught, the government denies it.

I never see anyone say, the US is a pretty good country, it’s always the "love it or leave it" meme. You hate America if you disagree with the rhetoric. “who assumed his country was so much better off than the US because he is ignorant of his own country.” – oh please, look at the people on this board. They know nothing about other countries and cultures and insist that the US is the best country in the world. Hence the OP: What are these special and magical freedoms that the US has that no other country has?

I happen to know a bit about world politics, as have many posters on this board. Because I don’t happen to agree with you, do not diminish mine or other’s knowledge.

Didn’t the US military murder students on University Campuses a few decades back. When Tianamen square occurred, people at my office said that would never happen in the US. It already had.

[Tricky D]

Originally Posted by chielgirl

Tricky, what would that look like? If I'm offended, I'll say that it incited hate. That's slippery. I understand what you're saying, but how would you do that?

Let the court settle it.
If you feel insulted you should got to court and they will decide if it was just insulting (not truly forbidden) or inciting hate (forbidden by law).

[chielgirl]

That would be interesting!

[Tricky D]

I guess it would be the same as on this board.
Sometimes some Americans truly feel insulted by the things I say but I am not banned by the moderators. I am not inciting to hate Americans, I just critique the American government or their policy when they do things I disagree with.
Whether people agree with me or not is not a concern of mine.

I mean Theo van Gogh (a very controversial Dutch filmmaker and columnist) had to go to court several times because some religious (Christian, Jewish, Muslim) organisations found what he was saying insulting, but he was never fined tho.
It is just too bad that he was killed by an extremist.

[Amaznjohn]

Originally Posted by chielgirl

The US PR is that it is better than all other countries, so it doesn’t measure up when looked at. They’re a victim of their own PR. Look at some of the posters here, the America love it or leave it crowd. They’re as much the culprit.

If there is ever a natural disaster in any part of the world, we'll see who is called upon to answer whatever need arises. It won't be Holland, or the UK, or Australia. It'll be the U.S. and we'll answer however possible, whether friend or foe.

Didn’t the US military murder students on University Campuses a few decades back. When Tianamen square occurred, people at my office said that would never happen in the US. It already had.

I thought you were knowledgable about world politics? At Kent State, things went horribly wrong. This was not a result of a government order to kill the demonstrators. The inexperienced members of the National Guard unit were a bit jumpy and got a bit trigger happy. This is quite a bit different from the government ordered massacre at Tianamen Square. The U.S. military, as a policy even puts itself in danger avoiding the killing of innocent lives, something only a few countries would be willing to do.

As far as Guantanamo is concerned, these were enemy combatants or those acting as enemy combatants. In most cases they are treated there better than they would be treated by their own. There's no evidence of any mistreatment of the prisoners there, no matter what propaganda you read.

[Mooseketeer]

Originally Posted by Tricky D

Originally Posted by chielgirl Let the court settle it.
If you feel insulted you should got to court and they will decide if it was just insulting (not truly forbidden) or inciting hate (forbidden by law).

I agree with you TrickyD. Free Speech is indeed a wonderful thing but to me we have to have limits.

Any incitation to hatred or violence should be punishable by law.

There is a difference with words which wound ( are insulting or derogatory) and words which encourage people to kill or harm others.
The latter IMO must be punishable under the law.

Our Freedoms should stop when others are infringed. We all have human rights and yet nobody ever wrote a declaration of human duties and responsibilities which always surprised me.

As human beings we do not live in a vacuum, if we chose to live in society we should have modicum of social responsibility.

I am glad that many countries have made Holocaust denial, a crime under the law. Free speech when it engenders hatred, intolerance, bigotry , racism , homophobia is a very dangerous slippery slope.

[Frank_Carbonni]

Originally Posted by Mooseketeer

I am glad that many countries have made Holocaust denial, a crime under the law. Free speech when it engenders hatred, intolerance, bigotry , racism , homophobia is a very dangerous slippery slope.

Free speech is not there to defend speech you like, but the speech you don't.

And yes, the US is far superior to Europe in that regard, among others.

[chielgirl]

Frank, I'm going to disagree with you again.

Free speech zones 1 mile away from the president, but only if he doesn't like your opinion. Domestic wiretapping of political enemies, of organizations like greenpeace and other non-violent peace movements are just 2 examples.

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by Mooseketeer

I am glad that many countries have made Holocaust denial, a crime under the law. Free speech when it engenders hatred, intolerance, bigotry , racism , homophobia is a very dangerous slippery slope.

It almost sounds like you don't want any speech that would differ from anyone elses. It almost sounds like you want everyone to think, speak, and act alike. It almost sounds like you want to deny that there IS hatred, intolerance, bigoty, racism etc in the world - or, at the very least, don't want to hear about it.