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If we are going to be asking ourselves these questions (which I have done BTW), let's ask ourselves why anybody waves their fist and chants "Death to America." Our unwavering support of Israel is part of the answer, but there is far more to that question and answer well beyond Israel. As already noted, we supported Saddam for eight years while he waged war against Iran, and Iranians were already none too happy about the Shah of Iran, that took their revolution to oust from power, and...
This isn't exactly about cowboys and Indians back in the day when vast parts of the world were still being settled my friend. If you take sides for whatever reason(s) it seems you do, then there is no point for us to exchange opinion about right or wrong. You seem to lean toward whatever will keep you in your comfort zone given your bias and/or who you view as friend or foe. My interest is more in the truth of these matters, right versus wrong, regardless whether convenient or not, comfortable or not, perhaps because I think we should have more friends and less foes. Perhaps because I think America can do better all considered, and not just for Americans.
I think concern for our fellow man here and abroad is who we are as a people, or who we like to claim we are anyway. Call me an optimist and wanting to believe in man's ability to progress as we have from so many wrongs like slavery.
I'm siding with what's right, plain and simple, as I always try to do, as objectively as possible.
I will accept your point that they are waving their fists for many reasons, and it was not helpful to bring that up.
But I think maybe you may have misunderstood me. I'm interested the truth, and in right vs. wrong too. Where we differ is, as I said earlier, I don't think there is a clear right and wrong here insofar as the claims to the land. And, its because I see both sides that I am speaking for Israel's interests, otherwise there wouldn't be a dialogue here. If I should find that it is Israel that has been unfairly and unreasonably intractable, I am willing to change my views. But let's be honest, it is you who so far has recognized only the merits of one side -- so its fair to say that it is you who has remained in your comfort zone.
Let's focus on where we agree. The humane treatment of Palestinians is essential. An end to the fighting should be negotiated. Negotiation means compromise, by both sides. Look at it this way, if Jimmy C. couldn't get past this point, its no surprise that we can't either.
P.S. hope you are enjoying Thailand. I's love to see some of those temples myself. I do like old stuff -- I identify with it.
Last edited by CapnTrips; 10-21-2016 at 11:22 AM..
I will accept your point that they are waving their fists for many reasons, and it was not helpful to bring that up.
But I think maybe you may have misunderstood me. I'm interested the truth, and in right vs. wrong too. Where we differ is, as I said earlier, I don't think there is a clear right and wrong here insofar as the claims to the land. And, its because I see both sides that I am speaking for Israel's interests, otherwise there wouldn't be a dialogue here. If I should find that it is Israel that has been unfairly and unreasonably intractable, I am willing to change my views. But let's be honest, it is you who so far has recognized only the merits of one side -- so its fair to say that it is you who has remained in your comfort zone.
Let's focus on where we agree. The humane treatment of Palestinians is essential. An end to the fighting should be negotiated. Negotiation means compromise, by both sides. Look at it this way, if Jimmy C. couldn't get past this point, its no surprise that we can't either.
P.S. hope you are enjoying Thailand. I's love to see some of those temples myself. I do like old stuff -- I identify with it.
I woke up early this morning which gives me one last short opportunity to check the news, emails and this thread before shoving off to the airport/Thailand...
Please note: what I consider the primary "comfort zone" is this perspective (and/or propaganda) here in America on behalf of Israel and America. Attempting to point at the truth of these matters in a sea of bias wanting to look the other way is outside that "comfort zone." In fact, if you really study how we in America have been dealing with this influence, so very strongly imposed on our elected representatives by AIPAC, you can truly begin to recognize how so much of the truth simply does not get to see the "light of day," whether because objection is drowned out as being anti-semitic, or because Palestinians are just terrorists and Israelis the chosen ones, or pick your nonsense...
Again as Sanders well pointed out, and this is very important. There are two sides to this story, but here in America, we only seem to know Israel's and/or our side, and most Americans hardly know much about that side either, other than in terms of us v them. More the case, we don't want to hear the other side.
Not sure what you mean by "clear right and wrong," since very few issues are ENTIRELY clear one way or the other, but in this particular case, the record shows far more wrong-doing on the part of the Zionists, going back to their admitted early terrorism (see King David Hotel). Do you know of Irgun or the Stern Gang, and how the leaders of these "terrorist" organizations (as deemed by the British) became Prime Ministers of Israel? There is also the record of all UN resolutions for all to see and consider -- objectively. Even the UN is dismissed as not worthy when critical of Israel. How convenient...
What does it take? A message from God?
No, just Google the information! Wikipedia for a quick start...
In any case, you need not speak for Israel's interests. We all know that side of the story. I know I certainly do, but it simply is not good justification for what continues to be the Israeli/Palestinian conflict today, no justification for the ongoing killing and terrorism that is a threat to peace for all of us. Until Israel and America come to accept this truth and perhaps begin doing a little less wrong and a little more right, we will never make the sort of progress toward peace that can and should be made.
Okay, off to Thailand. I will miss this little exchange for a while...
I woke up early this morning which gives me one last short opportunity to check the news, emails and this thread before shoving off to the airport/Thailand...
Okay, off to Thailand. I will miss this little exchange for a while...
I guess I misread your post and thought you'd already left. I won't try to distract you away from enjoying Thailand. Maybe you can tell me about the Temples when you get back.
I sometimes post on the Buddhism Forum.
Enjoy!
Up AWFULLY early this morning, still dealing with a time zone far from here...
The Buddhist Temples, Wats, are well beyond what I expected, especially those at the UNESCO sites we visited. The Royal Palace(s) and Bangkok are incredible as well, though it makes our gap between rich and poor look awfully small in comparison.
This was our 30-year wedding anniversary gift to ourselves, and all I can say is that any couple, every couple, should be so lucky to enjoy such a trip. Thank the Buddha we have been so fortunate, the Travel gods and Weather gods as well, all providing us nothing but a great time. Even the national mourning of their king (longest reign of any king anywhere) provided us some extra-ordinary experiences.
Great to be back too!
I could write volumes about this trip, supplemented by countless pictures, but I'll have mercy.
As the Chang poster on the ferry from Ko Chang read, "Live Like You Mean It!" One certainly can in Thailand for little money, and we certainly did these last 14 days. With the ongoing goal of always "living in the now," we certainly plan to live out the rest of our days like we mean it...
Hopefully it won't include 4 years of Trump as POTUS!
Israel formally rejected France's invitation to take part in a Middle East peace conference in Paris later this year, saying it was a distraction from the goal of direct negotiations with the Palestinians.
At a meeting in Jerusalem with Israel's acting national security adviser and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's diplomatic adviser, French envoy Pierre Vimont was informed that Israel wanted nothing to do with the effort to revive talks that last broke down in 2014.
"[They] told the French envoy in a clear and unequivocal manner that Israel's position to promote the peace process and reach an agreement will only come through direct negotiations between Israel and the Palestinian Authority," Netanyahu's office said in a statement.
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