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Old 10-07-2016, 12:01 PM
 
Location: Finland
24,128 posts, read 24,817,796 times
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Gun policies are an ever-recurring theme, and I've thought about it why the Americans have such a different view.

My points are:

  • The gun culture in the US is romantic. Guns represent individualism, freedom and self-sufficiency; the frontier mentality. In Europe guns represent oppression, dictatorship and misery. Americans have a love of guns, while Europeans fear guns, because they represent the opposites.
  • In the US guns are looked as a tool, a thing which represent your independence. A common argument is that an armed populace ensures democracy. But come on, the US military is by far the strongest in the world. If a corrupt president would seize power he/she could do it in no time. It's not like armed civilians would make much of an resistance. Meanwhile, in Europe this ethos never got ground, as the populace were never armed. The UK has always had very strict gun laws, and how many coups have there been? Zero.
  • This policy is also evident in legislation. The "Stand Your Ground" laws in the US are much more lax than over here. If a burglar armed with a knife comes into your house, you shoot him in the head and so you stood your ground. In Europe you will be charged with murder, because you used unnecessary violence.
  • That brings us to the next point: the concept of honour. In this aspect much of the US has this macho attitude left. Having a gun protects you and your family, it's a sign of the same things I mentioned before: individualism, freedom and self-sufficiency. Duels were a big thing in Europe just 150 years ago, but somehow we started to think that the whole concept is stupid and obsolete. Look at American and European football. In American football brute force is the main deal, in European football sneakiness.
  • History. Europe is a continent which has suffered so much in internal fighting that it's almost in our genes by now, while the US got some only once in the Civil War, and the rest was Manifest Destiny. Again, romantic John Wayne views versus Erich Maria Remarque's "All quiet on the Western Front".
  • What some pro gun owners claim is that con gun people don't know how guns work or understand guns. That might be, but that is/was not the case in Europe. Until the end of the Cold War most European countries had conscription, meaning that every able-bodied got to fire lethal hi-power assault rifles. Europeans including me, fired assault rifles, pistols, 50 cal AAMG:s, a LAW72 and threw hand grenades. I believe that this was an incentive to make Europeans having a respectful dislike for guns.
  • The circle of guns. Americans have gotten used to that everyone can be armed. In Europe the mentality is that nobody is armed. It affects you. You have a sarcastic joke that if someone gets fired you say "well, he's probably coming back to shoot us". Europeans don't get that joke. It's utopistic.


What do you think? Agree or disagree?
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Old 10-07-2016, 12:20 PM
 
1,448 posts, read 1,188,192 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariete View Post
A common argument is that an armed populace ensures democracy. But come on, the US military is by far the strongest in the world. If a corrupt president would seize power he/she could do it in no time. It's not like armed civilians would make much of an resistance.
A corrupt president would have to have the military on his side and that's so unlikely as to be almost unthinkable.

As for an armed insurgency against the government, look at how much damage was done to the American military by insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan who were armed with little more than rifles and improvised explosives.

There are 2 million Americans serving in the military. Even if they all turned against the populace, they'd be outnumbered by more than 300 million. It would not end well for them.
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Old 10-07-2016, 12:32 PM
 
Location: London
12,275 posts, read 7,144,139 times
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I think also it should be noted how big and sparsely populated the US is compared to say, Western Europe.

When you're living a big, rural mass of land with no one around you for miles except god knows what wild animals and harsh mother nature in general, you really need to give yourself the best chances of survival possible. And if you do encounter a dangerous person, good luck screaming for help when no one's around you.

That's how it was historically, and still is the case nowadays in rural areas (even calling 911 won't save you quickly enough), so that mentality became ingrained and largely remains -- except in densely populated cosmopolitan areas.

There's very much a cultural undertone of "be ready to kill, or be killed" stemming from such harsh, vulnerable original conditions.
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Old 10-07-2016, 12:38 PM
 
41,110 posts, read 25,745,785 times
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Most times a criminal waits until no one is home for a reason. If you are home, there may a good chance they'll meet with the other end of a gun. Without guns to defend yourselves leaves you helpless if threatened by a criminal.

If colonist were unable to get guns then we would still be under English rule.
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Old 10-07-2016, 12:45 PM
 
Location: London
12,275 posts, read 7,144,139 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petch751 View Post
Most times a criminal waits until no one is home for a reason. If you are home, there may a good chance they'll meet with the other end of a gun. Without guns to defend yourselves leaves you helpless if threatened by a criminal.

If colonist were unable to get guns then we would still be under English rule.
It's a double edged sword...er, gun though.

While burglars will be less likely to break into a gun owner's home while they're home, a burglar will likelier break into an unoccupied gun owner's home than an unoccupied gun-free house, since guns are the most sought-after item during a B&E.

In other words, the safest home is one with well-armed housewives.
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Old 10-07-2016, 12:50 PM
 
Location: Finland
24,128 posts, read 24,817,796 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ohhwanderlust View Post
I think also it should be noted how big and sparsely populated the US is compared to say, Western Europe.

When you're living a big, rural mass of land with no one around you for miles except god knows what wild animals and harsh mother nature in general, you really need to give yourself the best chances of survival possible. And if you do encounter a dangerous person, good luck screaming for help when no one's around you.

That's how it was historically, and still is the case nowadays in rural areas (even calling 911 won't save you quickly enough), so that mentality became ingrained and largely remains -- except in densely populated cosmopolitan areas.

There's very much a cultural undertone of "be ready to kill, or be killed" stemming from such harsh, vulnerable original conditions.
Yes, you're correct. This is the frontier mentality explained.
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Old 10-07-2016, 12:54 PM
 
Location: Where the mountains touch the sky
6,757 posts, read 8,584,434 times
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I lived in Europe for a while, and the culture and mindset are very different. I agree with the OP on many of their points, but there is one glaring difference that should be noted.

In Europe, there is a generational thing that has gone on for thousands of years that there are certain people that by right of birth, will rule.
Kings, queens, emperors, lords, dukes, princes, knights, even the pope, power is concentrated on one man/woman and their retainers and is closely guarded. Rights of the people aren't guaranteed, they are gifts given by those in power.


In the US, the power comes from the people which is why many elected offices have term limits so one individual can't gather too much legal power before they are forced out of office.
Our Constitution was instituted to LIMIT the power of government and enshrine individual rights and freedoms.


Gun ownership is just a reflection of our culture where:


"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government."

United States Declaration of Independence, 1776.

Basically, gun ownership, self sufficiency and personal responsibility are the foundations and reflections of who we are as a people. They are all faucets of the freedom to make your own choices, not be told what to do or how to do it.
That each man is responsible for his own decisions and destiny instead of being constrained by traditions generations old that limit a man to a specific job or future simply by accident of birth.


It's a very different mindset, culture and history from Europe, so we may as well compare Brazil to China or something because it's really an Apples to Oranges comparison no matter what the liberals/socialists/communists in this country would like it to be.
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Old 10-07-2016, 01:27 PM
 
4,040 posts, read 2,558,126 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MTSilvertip View Post
*snip*

Our Constitution was instituted to LIMIT the power of government and enshrine individual rights and freedoms.

*snip
"The government that governs least governs best". Henry David Thoreau
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Old 10-07-2016, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
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Unlike other nations, whose people are subjects of a sovereign government, Americans are sovereigns, served by a government. The government is not their master.
“Besides the ADVANTAGE OF BEING ARMED, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation,... forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the GOVERNMENTS ARE AFRAID TO TRUST THE PEOPLE WITH ARMS...”
- - - James Madison, Federalist Paper #46.
The Federalist #46

. . .
“... at the Revolution, the sovereignty devolved on the people, and they are truly the sovereigns of the country, but they are SOVEREIGNS WITHOUT SUBJECTS, and have none to govern but themselves.

“... In Europe, the sovereignty is generally ascribed to the Prince; here, it rests with the people; there, the sovereign actually administers the government; here, never in a single instance; our Governors are the agents of the people, and, at most, stand in the same relation to their sovereign in which regents in Europe stand to their sovereigns."
- - - Justice John Jay in Chisholm v. Georgia (2 U.S. 419 (1793))
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremec...CR_0002_0419_Z

No servant of the sovereign people would dare to disarm them.
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Old 10-07-2016, 02:54 PM
 
19,724 posts, read 10,131,910 times
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Don't forget that many Americans also have guns for hunting. It provides meat for the table, is a sport and provides the necessary reduction in population of some species.
And in some areas, it can be 10-15 minutes or more for the police to arrive after a call. Rural people especially, are accustomed to self-protection.
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