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I'm a conservative and I want everyone to have everything.
But I want them to earn it and pay for it themselves.
[I am, however, leaning towards single-payer health because insurance companies are complete evil and really can't be trusted with anything as important as health care.]
There are many times in my life that I have wanted something that I could not have it because I could not afford it. That includes children, a house, a car, and many other things. I waited and worked and saved until I could afford to do these things and had the time for them. I paid off loans. I worked 80-100 hour weeks.
It's called being a grown-up.
I'm okay with a progressive tax system, as well. The same dollar means different things to different people.
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroMartinez
I see you don't understand a flat tax. Let's say the flat tax is 20%.
Ok, here is some math for you.
If the hedge fund billionaire has an income of $10 million a year and the grandma has an income of $10,000 a year, what dollar amounts would each pay?
(Here is a hint, they won't pay the same dollar amount)
I know how a flat tax works and it's crippling to the working class. For example, someone making $20k/year doesn't really pay anything right now as it should be because their income is so low. But if you had a 9% flat tax, that $20k/year earner would now have to shell out $1,800/yr. That is very hurtful at that low level of income. Have you ever heard of the concept 'ability to pay'?
I see you don't understand a flat tax. Let's say the flat tax is 20%.
Ok, here is some math for you.
If the hedge fund billionaire has an income of $10 million a year and the grandma has an income of $10,000 a year, what dollar amounts would each pay?
(Here is a hint, they won't pay the same dollar amount)
Exactly. They wont pay the same dollar amount so a flat tax is redistribution of wealth. Only privatized user fees on everything is not redistribution of wealth. If you are against redistribution of wealth you need to support no taxes to fund public services. None whatsoever. The poor disabled grandma will of course die, but that is the price to pay for "no redistribution of wealth".
It's not theft, without taxation, there is no government and would probably result in Somalia like conditions.
There are conservatives, usually not of religious-based orientation, who believe in extremely limited government, -- nothing but a small police force, impartial courts, and a system to impose uniform (and honest) standards like weights and measures and traffic laws; even things like highways would be operated as a for-profit enterprise. This sort of "society without coercion" was a popular pipe dream of the "Ayn Rand crowd" when I was an undergrad, nearly fifty years ago.
But I think most of us soon got enough of the real "Korporate" world with the constant pressure for needless personal attention from customers who want too much, and supervising lackeys, plus the limited options of living paycheck-to-paycheck and the realization that by age 30, there's often nowhere to go but down.
So I don't think many of us would be willing to make much of an effort if the "safety net" weren't there; the problem is that it can be easily abused; below is a link to one of the worst examples I've ever met:
and I can assure you that every community has some like him; and that our welfare bureaucracy has absolutely no interest in weeding them out, and mandating responsible conduct, on penalty of being sent to a place where they can't get out, and liquor, drugs and lawyers (especially lawyers) can't get in so easily.
Point being, we have developed and advanced so far as a mature economy that it's ridiculously easy to get by, so long as the basic rules are observed. But beyond that, all manner of "head games" start; and it's usually the well-established, well-dressed, and manipulative individuals who love to play them.
Only our OP can figure out what's best for him individually; and most of us eventually learn that life's not very gratifying without "people to belong to"; But the rest is a matter of individual responsibility and accountability, and Big Brother and Sister aren't going to put anybody else's wants above their own.
Last edited by 2nd trick op; 02-22-2017 at 11:31 AM..
Conservative ideology is about the individual.me myself and I, give nothing of yourself to others,its all mine and you cant have any.
Liberal ideology is more about society as a team or all boats rising at the same rate,may cost the individual higher taxes but for your taxes you get many social programs and benefits.Liberals show more compassion to their fellow man whereas conservatives lack understanding of the concept.
conservatives tend to push people to do things for themselves. the old saying give a man a fish and he has had a meal, teach a man to fish and he can feed himself for a lifetime. but dont forget that conservatives are more generous with their own money than liberals give them credit for, especially since conservatives give more to charity than liberals do.
liberals on the other hand are in fact more generous with OTHER PEOPLES money. they want government to solve every ones problems, and that is what ends up with governments spending more and more money, and wasting more and more money, and creating more and more debt. debt that we as a country cannot afford.
and just giving someone something is not showing compassion, rather the opposite. when you give people the things they want and need, you are making them servile to you, and that is not compassion, but more like a modern form of slavery. making people dependent is not compassionate, making people independent is.
I suspect many people dont want anyone to have anything because they themselves feel the need to have someone to look down upon. The big money donor class does a good job of pitting working stiffs against the most desperate poor in society. Minimum wage increase is framed as bad because that lazy guy over there will make almost as much as you Joe Sixpack! So Joe Sixpack wants everyone else to suffer as well if he has to suffer with low pay and poor benefits. The reality of course is that a good standardized floor of benefits and worker's rights benefits everyone and we would never have such a radicalized right wing in America worshiping sociopaths like Ayn Rand if we had a proper public safety net for the disabled and good worker's rights and extensive public services. A social darwinist society where everyone is on their own breeds alot of social problems, despair and poverty and is very fertile ground for radicalization of politics.
The people who are the most against the redistribution of wealth are not wealthy, at all. Even making a 150k a year does not make you wealthy. Heck in DC it barely makes you middle class. Baffling
I don't really have a stance on wealth redistribution. I am just always amazed at how ruffled it gets people who are not wealthy at all. They go right to foot stomping and yell "get a job" to other working folks. They honestly believe that their 60-100k a year sets them apart from the "lazy" 20k a year worker. They never stop to realize that the 20k a year salary earner works just as hard as they do.
I don't think that's it. I think they object to redistribution because they WAY overestimate their actual total (local, state, and federal) effective tax rate, think they're paying more than they are, and resent those who pay an even lower tax rate but have all the same access to public services and benefits.
For example... 2 homes in the same town, same school district. One family of four with two school kids pays $1,500/year in property tax for public schools, etc. The other family of four with two school kids pays $8,000/year in property tax for public schools, etc. Why? They're getting the exact same access to public services and benefits.
FWIW, here's the average effective TOTAL (local, state, and federal) tax rate, by income group. The $60-100K earner would be in the Middle Quintile to the lower Fourth Quintile.
Quote:
Data sources for chart: Tax Policy Center and Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy
You lost all credibility the minute you said Obama phones.
You lost all credibility the moment you put everyone in a general category as well as the following arguments and the excuses/reasons why you are always right.....
All the conservatives in this thread should prove their ideas are correct by pointing out which right wing country has very good and high rankings in indicators of social and economic health. Oh that's right, the ones that do, they're all left wing countries.
I googled the seven deadly sins because I wasn't even sure what they are. It seems to me the far left are showing signs of at least most of the seven sins. I think the only one they may be lacking in is pride.
I would not proclaim that the left is not engaged in elements of the Seven Deadly Sin's because we certainly have a great many Right Leaning people on the Left, and we have people in the Far Left, who as well go to the extremes. The Seven Virtures are more related to a balance point that default to the good of mankind and the best of accouterments in process and manner for the good of humanity.
We have a right that is devoted to the elements of selfish engulfment, that has a generalized demeanor of self centered-ness of which has fixations of divisiveness, segregationist aspiration and aims of creating clone like replications of their representational imagery. they have little to no concern about what is regulatory governance, nor of respect for the Constitutions premise of what constitutes democracy. They pander to a level of religious extremism, as if its the Dark Ages of Science Vs Religion.
Then mix in both left and right, who have converted much of religion to pageantry programming based on prosperity ministry wrapped in secular contentions of aim to promote divisiveness.
Both have placed God as an Object, each thinks to manipulate their concept of God to fit their agenda.
Then comes "money" an elements that has made fools of kings and men for centuries upon centuries and each has come to see nothing more than such resources "squandered" over spans of time.
America is a good example of modern day "Squandering". Over the span of American history it has produced a volume of money, equal to amounts that none should even know what the word poverty is, within and upon the America soil. But so much has been squandered for so long, we are but deterioated system, who failed to maintain what those who came before us built. Our vices of Greeds driven madness has squander so much for so long, that now days, "squandering is paraded as if its a mark of status".
We have the insidiousness of people, claiming possession of multiple mansions, and bragging to each other about how many bathrooms they have, we have people who spend more than a million dollars on a 4 wheeled vehicle, with claims of power that no place in the public domain of general navigable streets can such power be used legally. they are sold as if the laws of physic's will be omitted based on over spending on the cost of the unit. Point and fact is, it still is subjected to the laws of physics and will kill the driven who thinks it is not.
Not one man who has ever lived has ever taken not even "one penny" from this earth and not one has ever been born to bring even "one penny" onto this earth. Yet, man places money above his respect for the God who created the whole of everything.
Power used against one man, becomes a power that is a detriment unto all man. Greed makes fools of those whom claim wisdom, and wisdom make folly unto those whom thinks it makes them more than mortal.
We don't know what L.I.F.E. means - it could truly be as simple as "Live In Fruitful Expressiveness" - That would simply be, to do so in T.R.U.T.H. = Try, Reason, Understand, Through Humbleness.
I'm sure other can turn the acronyms into many phrases.... but what is at basic in Life, is Truth... we can confound it and spin it and when it stops being confounded and the spinning ceases, it will still be Life and its Truths.
We watch today, men, made wealthy via entertainment, sports and many such things, become penniless and some become homeless and die in destitution after having the accessibility to utilize 100's of millions of dollars. We even see them on the Media seeking sympathy for their foolish vanity, and insidious pride driven madness of exaggerated egomania. We see others who amass millions, even billions, by fleecing others and damaging the lives of many, and they too find nothing more than a "squandering" of all such wealth, that often times find them, voided of any aspect of integrity, and reduced to the levels of nothing more than a common sloth filled and driven thief.
Truth of learning of such things has brought many man over the span of history to become philanthropist such as example of Carnegie, and in present day Bill Gates and Warren Buffet.... these men set a mission to give that money back into society, and as such non squandering aims brought them to find, they cannot responsibly give it all away, because in doing so, they became blessed by the vehicles that gained them such wealth, a replenishing that affords them to expand their giving, while also investing that lives are improved in the human sphere of society. Not all men who behold wealth gets with it the character of such men. We see someone like Trump, whom these men could buy him outright 100 times over and not loose a minute of thought about such a transaction, chose the higher path of character, where as Trump who has minuscule wealth compared to these men, is on a tare like a tyrant self patronizing about wealth he did not come by even via honest and honorable means. He is likely one who could never become of the Character of a Carnegie or Gates or Buffet in terms of Charitable Devotions of Wealth Contribution to Humanity for the Good of People.
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The Conservative Mind is derived from Desperation's Grasping, to hoard or dominate something.
