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However, I'll engage you on the points made so far:
I'm unsure about "thousands", or any specific number that can not be verified, but the overall spirit of the claim is likely to be true given my experience.
On 9/11 I was in Amsterdam, a city that is heavily populated with Muslims.
After the first plane hit, I went to the nearest bar with a television to watch the news.
As the second plane hit, the Muslim waitstaff erupted in celebration and cheers.
This was obviously not to be a phenomenon isolated to the random bar that I was in in Amsterdam. These were normal looking Arab-Muslims who were cheering, with normal jobs.
That Trump would isolate this specific behavior, which I myself witnessed, tells me that he likely witnessed it.
I consider this, your first part of engaging me very telling of far more bias on your part than you unfairly accuse of me...
Again, in the name of being objective, do a little research about what Trump said and ask yourself how he could say such a thing, specifically, still today considered one of his most blatant falsehoods, yet apparently accepted by you as a result of some interesting personal experience and bias in this regard on your part.
Trump's claim was about seeing thousands cheering in New Jersey. Not some other part of the world where we all know cheering might likely be expected by those who view America in very negative if not evil terms. Not sure who would immediately cheer either way upon seeing those first planes hitting those buildings when we did not yet even know what was happening, but I can accept some Muslims in some places might cheer regardless, about any calamity that befalls America.
This in no way excuses or explains what Trump claimed about Muslims in New Jersey. In fact, this is the big problem in terms of proper evaluation and response to crisis by a POTUS, what he chooses to say or not say, but lie? For many, that is simply inexcusable, reckless and evidence of dangerous leadership.
Not sure about you or Trump or anyone in a random bar, but with the group I happened to be with while those incredible scenes unfolded on TV, no one even knew what was happening or why. How could thousands in New Jersey instantly know why or how that was happening, even as the second plane hit? There was wide-spread confusion and unconfirmed reports about what was happening, especially in New Jersey, and to this day no one has been able to find what Trump said he saw on TV.
Please. Let's first agree on what is truthful and what is not, before we go on with the rest, with hopes we both agree that being truthful matters and lying cannot and should not be condoned, or we are surely lost when it comes to objectively judging right from wrong.
You only hear what you wish to believe is true or untrue. For Trump, you have the Press agitating after and hanging on every word. With Obama, he could lie for an hour straight and there would be nothing in the press. You haven't verified what is true or false for yourself, and especially not in comparison, and, if you are anything like the press, you are want make a big deal out of technicalities and / or less than clear statements that every president sometimes engages in.
You need to please be specific, because I hear and consider all I can possibly hear and consider to arrive at the truth and how best to judge the political right or wrong going around us. For example, I have explained what I have about what Trump said. I did not choose to hear what Trump said. I chose to consider whether Trump was being truthful or not, and given the facts as I know them, Trump was lying. It is you that excuses wrong-doing with pressures and agitations that any qualified POTUS should be well able to manage, or again we've got the wrong POTUS and leadership that we should rightfully criticize. You, instead, are wanting to make excuses for wrong behavior that simply better fits your narrative, emotions and agenda, or so it seems to me as I understand your comments.
With Obama as well, you must please be specific about what "lies" you are referring to, and I will agree or not based on what facts we can agree upon. Some say that when Obama "promised" you would be able to keep your doctor, he was lying. That to me is not a "lie" like what Trump said about thousands cheering in New Jersey on 9/11 or when Clinton lied about not having relations with Lewinsky. There is a difference we can agree upon here. Right?
Or that the press has not always been wanting to fact-check presidents for the most part equally in the same way. Anyone can have an opinion about any of that, but ultimately we need to consider what is truth or not, right or wrong regardless, with specifics, facts, and hope the press digs up as much dirt as can be had about everyone in politics, so we CAN judge.
If you and others view all this negative reaction to Trump as nothing more than a media bias, or bias of the Intelligence Community, or bias on the part of minorities, or bias on the part of college students, or bias on the part of anyone Trump labels as "enemies of the people," then just how and when are you able, capable, to recognize justified criticism of Trump? You've essentially assumed the strategy of deeming all sources of criticism unworthy. Where does that leave us?
In any case, if you don't think the press has been critical of Obama in many important respects, then you need to do more reading. I have a very liberal nephew, for example, who loves to send me articles and news on a regular basis about Obama's failings, about not being liberal enough, effective enough, never good enough. You've not seen any of that?
"Especially not in comparison" to Trump you add...
Yes, true, and again, this is because Trump almost seems to be trying to pick a fight -- with everyone, all the "enemies of the people" -- because this seems to be Trump's style, also as evidenced by his moronic back-and-forth with Swarzenegger about The Apprentice. This doesn't give you pause, a frame of reference from which to judge all the rest? You wonder why all the push back and criticism, as the POTUS displays such acts of childishness?
You seem intent on ignoring and/or explaining away all the wrong that is Trump, and expect not to be called out for doing so? I'm the biased one?
You make a good point to highlight what is generally the case regardless, and that is that politics is not a court of law. "Promises" are not lies when a POTUS can't do as he wants or thought he could.
Politics is speeches, appealing to people's emotions most of the time, people's intellect not so much, depending on the politician. Obama leaned toward appealing to American's intellects (perhaps a mistake given what intellect is generally displayed in these threads). We either agreed or disagreed with Obama intellectually. With Trump, it's different, very different. Now we have far more a matter of Trump appealing to American's emotions, or so it seems this is one very big difference between our past POTUS and this one, and another reason of MANY that Trump is viewed by the press the way he is...
This nation is to the point where personal behavior is not going to take precedence over the electorate's requirement to have their political needs met. I realize that the Left is used to shaming its opposition into political submission, but that time is pretty much over. Given that this was a primary tactic of theirs, I understand their consternation that it no longer works. Though, it should get used to that fact it if wishes to operate in world of how things are rather than how they wish them to be.
Running out of time and needing to sign off again, with hopes I might learn more about why we disagree, but here too, not fair...
"The Left is used to shaming its opposition?"
Are you really of the impression this is not just human nature when it comes to how people deal with people who they disagree with? Surely you can't read all these comments in these threads and think conservatives don't constantly engage in "shaming" those who they consider liberal. Can you watch the debates, whether the Democrats or Republicans, and not observe the obvious intent to shame opponents EVEN WHEN THEY ARE OF THE SAME PARTY?
You want to suggest this is a tactic of the left, as if not to shame the left? Humorous that irony, don't you think? Don't you see?
There should never be a time of political submission anymore than there should be a time when we stop thinking and judging what is going on around us, to us, because of us.
The primary tactic for everyone is to promote their agenda, push their beliefs, and some will do so in a respectable above-board and truthful manner, as objectively as possible. Some will take the low road, with an "ends justify the means" approach that makes lying and cheating fair game. No different than people do with their mates, relationships built on respect and trust, or ruined with lying and cheating, regardless the sex, political affiliation, religions or ethnic background.
There is the "good, bad and ugly" in all groups, among all people including liberals and conservatives and only the fools who can't distinguish the good vs bad due to blind ideology that presumes only the other guys are the bad guys...
This nation is to the point where personal behavior is not going to take precedence over the electorate's requirement to have their political needs met.
If the Left wanted a more tasteful conservative President to fill the seat when the pendulum inevitably swung back, then it should not have deviated so far from the social center. It's as simple as that.
As I search through this forum for intelligent life, more often than not I find nothing but the usual nonsense, but every now and then there are comments that seem better founded, more interesting, and especially when of an opinion different from mine, I feel more inclined to respond, engage, maybe learn something I may be missing...
Personal behavior is part of how people earn the respect of others, and political ends are better met when the respect of others is earned. No one feels all too comfortable following someone who acts and talks in childish rash fashion. I'm sure both the Left and the Right wanted a more tasteful POTUS. Just count the many comments in these threads by conservatives near revolted by Trump but who could not vote for Hillary. Not sure if the pendulum "swung back" or whether it is just broken, but I don't see much evidence or indication that Trump supporters represent what you refer to as "the social center."
However, I'm sure someone who seems to put some thought into their comments and opinion has something to offer in this regard as well, what you view as America's "social center" and why...
Again, you can clutch your metaphorical pearls, but it really doesn't make a difference at this point.
The swinging pendulum is a metaphor. Your comment.
What "metaphorical pearls" are you referring to?
Right. More importantly is what makes a difference at this point. Most everyone I think agrees that Trump's mental health and/or abilities make a very significant difference at this point, and thus my/our focus, regardless all Trump does to make HIMSELF all the more our focus...
King Cheetos cult members LOVE it when he drunk tweets. He is jealous of President Obama that he can't keep Obama's name out of his mouth.
Wormtongue Bannon whispers in his ears and Trump regurgitates that crap.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/09/o...t-to-hell.html
I’m convinced that this is part of his obsession with former President Barack Obama. Obama was quickly granted the thing Trump never had: upper-class acceptance and adulation.
Maybe, maybe not. The information age gives us unprecedented view into the life of a president. Just because we were given less access to personal behavior, before, does not mean that such distasteful behavior did not exist for prior presidents. Just who do you think Bill Clinton was in his off-time, to use a recent example? Please. This fake moral outrage is because of Trump's politics, not because of his person. The Right knows that, and this dichotomy is driving the social wedge deeper.
Another interesting observation, don't you think, how often, especially now with Trump, that you and others turn to the "two wrongs make a right" justification for bad behavior...
If you/we excuse distasteful behavior now and tomorrow, because others exhibited the same in the past, then you are essentially eliminating yet another source or reason to criticize government officials, others, Trump in particular.
What bad behavior can we not excuse in the same way, as if all wrongs were not committed over and over in the past, including even murder? I truly do not understand this way of thinking that is so prevalent in this forum.
Wrong doing is wrong doing, and if we can't all agree about this simple truth as well, then we truly entertain a manner in which to judge our government representatives that defies logic. Is that the intent when attached to the defense of someone who is inclined toward wrong doing then? Like a defense attorney might do whether his client is guilty or not?
"Fake moral outrage?"
Is that how you view the attempt to distinguish right from wrong, going backward rather than forward? The significant criticism(s) of Trump from the beginning have been because of his politics, yes of course, as well as his person. Please is right. If it wasn't for Trump's politics, me and all the rest of us who think he is bad for America could really care less about his person. I surely didn't care less about Trump back when he was just developing resorts, talking publicly about grabbing ***** and hosting a TV show...
I get the impulse for cross application of this phrase, to a dismissal of identifying psychologically abusive behavior from a phrase that applies to Freudian psych analysis, but it can't be cross applied. It's an off-hand, well-known phrase that applies to psych analysis.
Psychological abuse is fairly cut and dry when it meets the profile for such. In this instance, the accusation of a psychological disorder to non-disordered behavior, by a non-psychologist, matches the profile for gaslighting aka: ambient abuse.
I think we all know what "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" means...
I also think psychological abuse is another wrong-doing that should not be excused, but I'm not sure that "gaslighting" is the only explanation for why the OP chose to open this thread by calling Trump's mental health into question.
Perhaps if we can agree that "gaslighting" is wrong as well, we can agree that Trump's manner in which to discredit those he chooses to target as enemies is just as wrong. Fair? One need only search all Trump's insults to date and not only consider their nature but the number, and given that Trump is doing so from a position of power, there you have far more important reason to be critical than the time you devoted to the OP of this meaningless thread...
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/09/o...t-to-hell.html
I’m convinced that this is part of his obsession with former President Barack Obama. Obama was quickly granted the thing Trump never had: upper-class acceptance and adulation.
I think this guy got it right
Yes, but if you want to earn credibility for any Trump criticism among Trump supporters, you can't use the media to do it, because they've made it clear all such reports are by definition not worthy.
Which leaves us what I continue to wonder...
Even if we focus on just what is done rather than Trump's tweets, speeches and antics, even if Trump stumbles and bumbles biggly, you can be sure Trump supporters will have a justification and "alternative truth" about the whole affair until ultimately Trump gets credit for any good while any bad is blamed on liberals and all the other "enemies of the people."
Heads I win. Tails you lose.
The sort of coin toss all people incapable of objective logic and reason will always insist upon. Beats having to think...
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