Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
She's 88 years old. Do you think there is even the slightest chance that maybe she isn't the crazy one, being that, you know, she's actually old enough to have lived in Nazi Germany and seen it with her own two eyes? The rest of us 30 and 40 somethings are merely blowharding about what we've been told by other people or read in books or seen on TV. Me personally, I don't believe anything that anybody tells me these days but you have to admit there probably aren't too many people left alive in Germany who have first hand accounts of those days, and the ones who had the nerve to say things that didn't jive with the popular narrative would be pretty easy to lock them up and call them crazy wouldn't it?
You're talking nonsense. Never heard of the Historikerstreit? "Hitler's willing Executioners" and the raging debate it fostered ring a bell?
Quote:
In Germany it's illegal to deny it, so basically it's impossible to carry a real research. In the US...Good luck if you can get funding unless your stance is already clear before studying.
Ah - it's not "real" research. The intention becomes clearer.
No, German archivists are not going to let any amateur with an axe to grind rummage through priceless documents and artifacts so they can gain a little recognition among their anti-semite friends. Apart from the ethical implications of letting people rummage through the last traces of a murdered person's existence - in order to eradicate even that small echo of a life cut short - we don't let creationists finger the Neanderthal fossils, because they're idiots and will break them. Of course, anyone is free to start by attacking the process and conclusions in the thousands of papers, books and articles already published. This in fact happens, sometimes to great uproar, in academia and in public.
But if your "stance" is "it didn't happen", you're in the crackpot category and will be treated as such - by German and US academia both. We know it happened - as well or better than we know the Civil War happened. If you want to do research on how it could happen, nothing stands in your way.
You're talking nonsense. Never heard of the Historikerstreit? "Hitler's willing Executioners" and the raging debate it fostered ring a bell?
Ah - it's not "real" research. The intention becomes clearer.
No, German archivists are not going to let any amateur with an axe to grind rummage through priceless documents and artifacts so they can gain a little recognition among their anti-semite friends. Apart from the ethical implications of letting people rummage through the last traces of a murdered person's existence - in order to eradicate even that small echo of a life cut short - we don't let creationists finger the Neanderthal fossils, because they're idiots and will break them. Of course, anyone is free to start by attacking the process and conclusions in the thousands of papers, books and articles already published. This in fact happens, sometimes to great uproar, in academia and in public.
But if your "stance" is "it didn't happen", you're in the crackpot category and will be treated as such - by German and US academia both. We know it happened - as well or better than we know the Civil War happened. If you want to do research on how it could happen, nothing stands in your way.
I think you guys are wasting your breath.
When someone believes something in the face of insurmountable evidence to the contrary, they clearly believe it because they WANT to believe it.
If that insurmountable evidence is not enough for them, nothing you can say or do will be enough for them. They want to believe that the holocaust didn’t exist. Just like flat earth people want to believe the earth is flat.
Rather than try to argue with them, the question that we should be asking is WHY do they want to believe these things?
No the Holocaust is not well studied at all. In Germany it's illegal to deny it, so basically it's impossible to carry a real research. In the US...Good luck if you can get funding unless your stance is already clear before studying.
The Holocaust is perhaps the most well studied, well documented event in recent history. First person documents; meticulous detailing of what was happening in the camps; accounts from survivors, guards, doctors, neighbors, liberators, etc.; archaeological digs; and so much more. Have you done YOUR research? Been to the ghettos and camps? Interviewed survivors and others? Read/translated first person documents? I have.
When someone believes something in the face of insurmountable evidence to the contrary, they clearly believe it because they WANT to believe it.
If that insurmountable evidence is not enough for them, nothing you can say or do will be enough for them. They want to believe that the holocaust didn’t exist. Just like flat earth people want to believe the earth is flat.
Rather than try to argue with them, the question that we should be asking is WHY do they want to believe these things?
Great reminder. It's easy to give deniers credibility by arguing with them. They know the proof is out there, but want to disbelieve it. Why?
I can give you one answer...
To quote Deborah Lipstadt, one of my personal heros and the one who most influenced my own Holocaust studies, "And therein is a lesson that can be learned by all who fight the purveyors of hatred and lies. Though the battle against our opponents is exceptionally important, the opponents themselves are not. Their arguments make as much sense as flat-earth theory. However, in dramatic contrast to flat-earthers, they can cause tremendous pain and damage. Some of them use violence. Others, as Hajo Funke said in Berlin as we sat in the shadow of the Reichstag, use words that, in turn, encourage others to do harm. It was words that motivated those who blew up the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City, dragged an African-American down a logging road to his death, tortured a young homosexual in Wyoming, stabbed a Jewish student to death on the streets of Crown Heights, blew up Israeli families about to celebrate the Passover Seder, and flew planes into the World Trade Center. We must conduct an unrelenting fight against those who encourage—directly or indirectly—others to do these things. But, even as we fight, we must not imbue our opponents with a primordial significance. We certainly must never attribute our existence to their attacks on us or let our battle against them become our raison d’etre. And as we fight them, we must dress them—or force them to dress themselves—in the jester’s costume. Ultimately, our victory comes when, even as we defeat them, we demonstrate not only how irrational, but how absolutely pathetic, they are."
First, excellent username and post combo. Second: You're right, there's no debating with people who think "Are you Jewish?" has any bearing on reality. Such people should be spoken of, not to.
But I like to think that other people may read these exchanges and perhaps one or two may walk away without thinking that Holocaust denial is a valid point of view.
The Holocaust is perhaps the most well studied, well documented event in recent history. First person documents; meticulous detailing of what was happening in the camps; accounts from survivors, guards, doctors, neighbors, liberators, etc.; archaeological digs; and so much more. Have you done YOUR research? Been to the ghettos and camps? Interviewed survivors and others? Read/translated first person documents? I have.
A "well studied" subject must be open for discussion and debate. The Holocaust is not. It's a taboo.
Or you can say it is "well studied" on one side, guided by one principle.
Last edited by Bettafish; 11-12-2017 at 12:39 PM..
First, excellent username and post combo. Second: You're right, there's no debating with people who think "Are you Jewish?" has any bearing on reality. Such people should be spoken of, not to.
When someone believes something in the face of insurmountable evidence to the contrary, they clearly believe it because they WANT to believe it.
If that insurmountable evidence is not enough for them, nothing you can say or do will be enough for them. They want to believe that the holocaust didn’t exist. Just like flat earth people want to believe the earth is flat.
Rather than try to argue with them, the question that we should be asking is WHY do they want to believe these things?
On the contrary, you are the one who 100% believe what is fed to you on this subject. Any educated person will have readonable doubt on anything presented to him. Only those who have religion-style faith get irritated for a slight suggestion of alternative.
You're talking nonsense. Never heard of the Historikerstreit? "Hitler's willing Executioners" and the raging debate it fostered ring a bell?
Ah - it's not "real" research. The intention becomes clearer.
No, German archivists are not going to let any amateur with an axe to grind rummage through priceless documents and artifacts so they can gain a little recognition among their anti-semite friends. Apart from the ethical implications of letting people rummage through the last traces of a murdered person's existence - in order to eradicate even that small echo of a life cut short - we don't let creationists finger the Neanderthal fossils, because they're idiots and will break them. Of course, anyone is free to start by attacking the process and conclusions in the thousands of papers, books and articles already published. This in fact happens, sometimes to great uproar, in academia and in public.
But if your "stance" is "it didn't happen", you're in the crackpot category and will be treated as such - by German and US academia both. We know it happened - as well or better than we know the Civil War happened. If you want to do research on how it could happen, nothing stands in your way.
Researchers often have their own stances or hypotheses. It is perfectly fine as long as their research follows logic and science. If you really want to argue against them, you should let them speak and find mistakes in their study.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
