To Those Out There That Believe Socialized Medicine Is Superior If True Explain Why Our Current Health Care System Is

[man4857]

I don't know if those against socialized medicine even understand economics. Like legitimately understand economics without their ideology getting in the way.

Healthcare in America is failing because:
1) Cost - Too high for most Americans to afford given the income spectrum
2) Quality - "Quality" is subjective, but you can measure it by looking at it's outcomes as provided by the many statistics of pages on this threads (life expectancy, infant mortality, etc...). Basically: for every dollar you put into the system, what kind of outcome do you get.
3) Coverage - Since insurance varies, some people have better insurance than others, and some have none at all

If you combine (1), (2), and (3). This meets the definition of a market failure defined as: situation in which the allocation of goods and services is not efficient.

"Efficient" in this context is referring to economic efficiency which consists of 2 parts:
(i) Allocation Efficiency - state of the economy in which production represents consumer preferences
(ii) Productive Efficiency - situation in which the economy could not produce any more of one good without sacrificing production of another good

(i) which essentially says, the economy shall produce what consumers want (i.e. market demand), and
(ii) which essentially says, goods and services are being produced at lowest possible cost hence... you cannot make 1 thing, but jack up the price of some other good

In the healthcare "market", the goods and services rendered are all the same. Human bodies work the same regardless of the health condition. The problem is allocation of resources in part (ii). Since a hospital or any medical facility has a finite amount of resources (beds/doctors/nurses/etc..), it has to make compromises between which goods and services to render first. Who do you think the hospital will prioritize in a free market? Obviously the patient who will pay the most money, not the most critical patients, hence the market failure.

This free market prioritizes the interests of money over health and is not efficient because it fails (i), since a less critical patient is being served before a more critical patient and (ii) the goods and services is not produced at the lowest possible cost since the price of some given good and service is priced according to what the market will demand... hence, the group of patients with the most money will raise prices for those with less money. But the group of patients with the most money is less than the group of patients with less money. Which equals poor outcomes for everybody. (51%+ of the population) The way the healthcare system operates now is largely based on this principle and the side effects (defined as "externalities" in economics), is what is bad. With externalities being, those poor health outcome statistics everyone likes to point out in support of socialized medicine.

To put this concept into real actual world example with economics. Let's assume you are a city of 99 people and a ballot measure reads the following:
Select whether you want to pay $20 or $100 to pay to fund the fire department.*
*If more than 50% of the people chooses $20, there will not be a fire department

^ The problem with this as most conservatives will point out is the free-rider issue. Some people will benefit without paying. If less than 50% of the people chooses to pay $100, there will be a fire department that serves the entire community, but at least 51% of the people benefit from the service without paying. But in the free market, do you want to pay $20 or $100? If you choose $20 (which most will), nobody will have a fire department, which benefits no one. So... to sum it up: your individual self-interest ends up hurting everyone as a whole since the city now has no fire department. So how do you fix this problem? In come Uncle Sam with something everyone loves to pay called, taxation.

You can thank my sweet edumacation for this.

[ahzzie]

Originally Posted by ChevySpoons

It's that "freedom and individualism" that's going to kill you. You know that, right?

You're free to buy as much health insurance as you want--if you can afford it, and as long as the bean counters at the insurance company allow you to make a claim. If they don't, well then, too bad, so sad. Those of us in truly free countries never have claims denied, if our freely-chosen doctor okays them. And no hospital is "out of network" when it comes to emergency care.

Enjoy the freedom of paying those co-pays and deductibles. Real countries that care about their citizens have no such things. I've never paid for co-pays or deductibles. I go to any doctor, any hospital, any time--and pay nothing at point of service.

Enjoy the individualism that comes from saying, "I'm all right, Jack. Sucks to be you." Until you're Jack, and your fellow citizens tell you, "Sucks to be you." In my country, you'd be looked after. In the USA--well, sucks to be you.

Many countries value freedom and individualism. But they realize that we're all in this together--just look to fire departments, police, and paramedics. That's not socialism; that's reality. And it exists in most First World countries, including the USA. But when it comes to health care, the USA may be a First World country, but it is an outlier in health care. Nobody wants to copy the US's system; and citizens of many countries seem to feel that the US has a long way to go before it catches up to the rest of the world in how it treats its citizens as regards health care. Just ask Australians, Canadians, British, French, Germans, etc.

Excellent post!

It's just a matter of time before some right winger comes in here and says that, as a Canadian, you are literally dying in the streets because of your healthcare system. They say these things because they want to try and frighten the public here into thinking the Canadian system is inferior to the US's.

They know that support for a universal system in the US similar to yours is gaining popularity among the public. Ironically, the actions of the Trump administration seem to be hastening the process. Trump and the GOP are going to damage the current system to the point where single payer is the only option. That time can't come soon enough.

[BruSan]

Originally Posted by ahzzie

Excellent post!

It's just a matter of time before some right winger comes in here and says that, as a Canadian, you are literally dying in the streets because of your healthcare system. They say these things because they want to try and frighten the public here into thinking the Canadian system is inferior to the US's.

They know that support for a universal system in the US similar to yours is gaining popularity among the public. Ironically, the actions of the Trump administration seem to be hastening the process. Trump and the GOP are going to damage the current system to the point where single payer is the only option. That time can't come soon enough.

The really strange thing about all of this is those of us from a foreign country currently enjoying some form of universal or single payer system AND who are also more than familiar with the American system and it's myriad of shortcomings, either through working there or spending snowbird winters there, wish nothing but for the entirety of American population to enjoy the same benefits of universality that would come to every one of you.

The far lower national cost, and better outcomes without any of the aggravation that goes with submitting forms to insurance companies and the resultant angst waiting for approval of costs, or even worse; outright denial.

We wish all of you could understand the privilege of not foregoing routine doctor's visits due to their associated costs, the experience of not reviewing a hospital bill and negotiating your portion of payment due, indeed, not ever being presented with a bill...ever! The experience of foregoing enrolling your child in some activity or another because your budget says paying for healthcare needed, or already obtained, comes first.

All of the insidious little drawbacks to an insurance model of healthcare-for-profit with third party intrusion by an entity that has no interest in your well being whatsoever, other than your ability to pay premiums would be gone. You would all have the same skin in the game, the same vested interest and power to affect oversight and change.

How many Americans would "honestly" wish their system upon the rest of us with only "good intentions"?