Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
So I've done a good bit of threads concerning reparations, some with polls. One of the responses I often get back is "There is nobody alive who have been slaves. So why give reparations today?" This argument against reparations isn't a very strong one. However after hearing it so much, it did have me wondering. If you were alive back in 1865, would you be in favor in giving the newly freed slaves 40 acres and mule?
I asked this question to a Youtube commentator a month ago. I wasn't totally surprised by the answer I received, but it had me shaking my head, confirming the mindset of people when it truly comes to this issue.
I would have been, probably. It's hard to know what my thinking would have been in 1865, though, since I would not be the same person I am now.
Actually, the govt did promise them reparations. 40 acres and a mule, I think. But then reneged on the deal, I believe.
I am not in favor of reparations, now. Because no one alive is suffering the direct consequence of slavery, and determining who should get it would be a nightmare. Do they have to prove an ancestor was a slave? How? What if you're an immigrant Af American? What if your ancestors are from Haiti and were never slaves here?
If you give reparations to Af Americans, then what about women? Many women were not allowed to inherit or own property, work to make money, were beaten and even legally killed. What about them?
It's a slippery road to go down, trying to go way back in history and pay for something that other people did to other people, none of whom have been alive for over a century.
I would be in favor for that. Of course I did a thread about this a little while ago, and there were responses speaking how they receive money every year from the government. Now, my thing about Native Americans, those living on the reservations, is they need to come together. Think about selling the land and becoming full members of the US. Of course, that is my opinion. Altogether, the land of their reservations are worth over 1.5 trillion dollars. That is a lot of wealth for 700,000 people to work with.
For the descendants of slaves, we were never given nothing. Also, Native Americans owe their slaves' descendants their own reparations. Take the Indian treaty of 1866, where the slaves of Native Americans were supposed to be set free (they were) and made full members of the Cherokee tribe. They would be able to take part in the benefits and money the government gave to their tribe. However, the Cherokee and other tribes came up with quantum blood laws to keep the descendants of slaves out of their rightful share to the benefits.
Ultimately what I'm saying with all that is, the descendants of slaves are owed a whole lot by this country. Including what some are owed from Native Americans. Look up the Five Civilized Tribes and the slaves they owned.
Would you want to become a "full member" of the U.S. who tore families apart, made them walk hundreds of miles relocating them, killed them, (and they returned the favor, of course), LIED to them, conquered and took the lands they once lived on for generations, and then shuffled them all of to some reservation?
Put aside the history for a minute and imagine that right now, the government came in and forcefully removed you from your home, made you walk hundreds of miles to another area that you didn't want to live in, lied to you about it, and treated you like "savages" the entire time.
Just think about that for a minute or two.
Would you want to become a "full member" of a people who did that to you?
I think we've screwed the NDNs over enough...leave them to live how they want. Many of them aren't fond of white people. I've lived across the road from one family of a tribe and they did not want to talk to any white person, would not even look at a white person if they could help it except in very extremely rare cases when they would befriend a white person or 2. As a whole, they don't like "white people", and when I say "white people" it isn't just "white people of European decent", it's all people who are not NDN. That's not all families and all tribes, but if we aren't giving them anything for what this country did when they conquered and took their lands, besides a sh***y reservation, then leave them alone.
It does not, it leaves us just where we started. Assuming this is 1865, as the OP asks, what is justice for salves? Or is it just tough cookies, better luck next time.
As an aside, morally this is a fine way to live your life, as an individual.
I know it’s not an 8 minute video, but read Jared Diamond’s Guns, Germs & Steel, about the start of human civilization. From that you will see we have always been ‘statists’.
It does not, it leaves us just where we started. Assuming this is 1865, as the OP asks, what is justice for salves? Or is it just tough cookies, better luck next time.
As an aside, morally this is a fine way to live your life, as an individual.
I know it’s not an 8 minute video, but read Jared Diamond’s Guns, Germs & Steel, about the start of human civilization. From that you will see we have always been ‘statists’.
I was hoping you would come to an understanding on who initiated force, who was victimized, and what remedies were possible. Obviously the video didn't work for you.
Also, civilization is made up of individuals. Only individuals have rights. Only individuals can violate rights. When I talk about sins of the State I'm talking about the individuals condoning and supporting the State's illegitimate claim on rights.
As an aside, this is the only way to live your life, as an individual because only an individual lives a life. Just throwing it out there.
I was hoping you would come to an understanding on who initiated force, who was victimized, and what remedies were possible. Obviously the video didn't work for you.
Also, civilization is made up of individuals. Only individuals have rights. Only individuals can violate rights. When I talk about sins of the State I'm talking about the individuals condoning and supporting the State's illegitimate claim on rights.
As an aside, this is the only way to live your life, as an individual because only an individual lives a life. Just throwing it out there.
Then is the case of slavery, which was the point of the thread, who initiated force, who was victimized, and what are the remedies?
Individuals make up the collective, or the state. They don’t surrender all their liberty to the states when the become part of it, buy share in the decisions. Has the state, or government, gotten too big...yes. Do I believe that the market can control corporations? No way.
Many people thought that way, and one wonders what our country would be like today without all the racial strife.
Blacks have made contributions to our country, and in this modern age we cannot imagine a country without them.
However, in virtually any society where a portion of the population was subjugated, the ancestors look for revenge somewhere down the line. Looking at some African countries today, whether it be Zimbabwe or South Africa, the notion that the once oppressive culture can give power to the subjugated and not pay a price is a pipe dream.
You'd think that if any culture could have pulled it off, it would have been America, where blacks seemed to be assimilating into American culture and values.
But the leftist malcontents have been hard at work causing division and strife to the point of wealthy pampered black multi-millionaires kneeing during our countries national anthem.
They fail to understand that America (all be it imperfect) is the greatest country in human history, and the ideals it was founded upon resulted in blacks freedom. Today they can reap all the benefits just like any other race.
Had their ancestors been shipped back to Africa, many would not be alive today, and certainly most would not be enjoying the quality of life they have.
So for lack of a better way of putting it, freedom and life in this country (not to mention all the trillions of dollars spent on social programs to help them) is all the reparations anyone would need. That is the reason so many people from around the world want to come and live here. Our poor are the envy of virtually every society, and certainly the 3rd world including the dark continent.
The Homestead Act was in effect at the end of the civil war (and later). It gave not 40, but 160 acres of free land to those willing to settle it. I am unaware of black people being prohibited from participating, but could be wrong.
Some black people succeeded in getting a land grant. Yet they couldn't make economic moves like white people could. So for those who got access to land, they were limited in what they could do with it. Reparations would have given all of them land and government protection. So if the rowdy KKK boys came in with their midnight rides, American troops would have been there to meet them head on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katygirl68
I often wonder what people’s mindset would have been if slavery had ended without a war. We know the Industrial Revolution was going to end the institution of slavery no matter what. I wonder if it has just ended on its own, would there have been the Jim Crow laws and the KKK and all that?
Yeah, who knows how long it would have took before slavery to end without the Civil War. Depending on how well the South could have quelled rebellions, slavery could have upgraded in form. They could allowed the slaves to become educated in manufacturing, and you would have had a whole class of free laboring engineers. The same with doctors, construction workers, etc. Can you imagine the income that would be produced if I had 10 doctors or surgeons working for me, collecting all their checks for myself? Yet again who knows.
Now say if your scenario did happen, and slavery had no place in the economy anymore. The best case scenario for the former slaves, is they would be treated like illegal aliens. They wouldn't be treated like white people. They couldn't gain a standard of whiteness like the Irish other European immigrants did. Even Lincoln didn't have full plan in making black people citizens, being able to vote and such.
Would you want to become a "full member" of the U.S. who tore families apart, made them walk hundreds of miles relocating them, killed them, (and they returned the favor, of course), LIED to them, conquered and took the lands they once lived on for generations, and then shuffled them all of to some reservation?
Put aside the history for a minute and imagine that right now, the government came in and forcefully removed you from your home, made you walk hundreds of miles to another area that you didn't want to live in, lied to you about it, and treated you like "savages" the entire time.
Just think about that for a minute or two.
Would you want to become a "full member" of a people who did that to you?
I think we've screwed the NDNs over enough...leave them to live how they want. Many of them aren't fond of white people. I've lived across the road from one family of a tribe and they did not want to talk to any white person, would not even look at a white person if they could help it except in very extremely rare cases when they would befriend a white person or 2. As a whole, they don't like "white people", and when I say "white people" it isn't just "white people of European decent", it's all people who are not NDN. That's not all families and all tribes, but if we aren't giving them anything for what this country did when they conquered and took their lands, besides a sh***y reservation, then leave them alone.
I say this because Native Americans who have become apart of society, are doing decently to pretty good. As I mentioned, if those on the reservation came together, saw themselves as one tribe, there is a lot of power right underneath their feet. While some reservations aren't worth a lot, others are money mines. Yet even for the reservations that have limited natural resources, land is land. It's still worth something. If they became one tribe, or saw themselves as the same, Native Americans could become a powerhouse in this country. They could be like royalty.
Yet as for how they view this country, I don't have to imagine a whole lot. I'm a descendant of slaves. My ancestors weren't forced off their lands, they were dragged away in chains. They were beaten, raped, and murdered. They were also owned by Native Americans themselves. (There were black slaves in the "Trail of Tears". I imagine a lot of them were forced to carry their owner's belongings.) Native Americans returned fugitive slaves back to their white masters, to earn some type of profit. Even after slavery was "over", we were still beaten, raped, and murdered in this country. In spite of all that, we haven't isolated ourselves from the country. We weren't really given that choice.
So Natives won't get a lot of sorrow from me. I understand what they've gone through, but it's time for them to come together, put aside the old way of living, and move forward in this country. Some tribes have, as I mentioned the Southern Ute tribe before. Yet I believe the Ute tribe should encourage other tribes, and move forward together with that influence.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
