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Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
27,606 posts, read 14,604,784 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess
Private dispute resolution councils and private insurance companies.
You're naive; it's police and the threat of force are the only things that allow capitalism to survive. Without that, the have nots would try to take the haves' stuff
Private dispute resolution councils and private insurance companies.
“The first man who, having fenced in a piece of land, said "This is mine," and found people naïve enough to believe him, that man was the true founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: Beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody.”
― Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Discourse on the Origin of Inequality
Capitalism relies on the threat or use of violence to claim the world's resources for one particular person or corporation. Any claim that capitalism is "natural" fails because private ownership of the land is not a natural state. Societies with the concept of private ownership of the land as a commodity and which use money tend to be the ones with poverty. The more "primitive" societies which do not have this belief in private ownership of land or of land as a commodity or of measuring everything in terms of money do not have poverty. So of course the answer to the OP is you can't make capitalism "work" and eliminate poverty. Poverty and capitalism are forever intertwined.
“The first man who, having fenced in a piece of land, said "This is mine," and found people naïve enough to believe him, that man was the true founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: Beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody.”
― Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Discourse on the Origin of Inequality
Capitalism relies on the threat or use of violence to claim the world's resources for one particular person or corporation. Any claim that capitalism is "natural" fails because private ownership of the land is not a natural state. Societies with the concept of private ownership of the land as a commodity and which use money tend to be the ones with poverty. The more "primitive" societies which do not have this belief in private ownership of land or of land as a commodity or of measuring everything in terms of money do not have poverty. So of course the answer to the OP is you can't make capitalism "work" and eliminate poverty. Poverty and capitalism are forever intertwined.
1. Rousseau kept a copy of the Social Contract under his mattress much like a teen boy would keep a Playboy under his. I don't put much stock into anything that delusional megalomaniac had to say.
2. There are no corporations under capitalism because corporations are a creation of the fictional State. There is no State under capitalism.
3. Private ownership of land is natural. The land I homestead and mix my labor with ceases to be in its virgin form therefore any man who wishes to use that land must recognize my efforts. Do you not own the land directly under your feet at this very moment? If not, I have a right to remove you from it (by force).
Rothbard noted this when he argued in favor of self-ownership because the only logical alternatives are "(1) the 'communist' one of Universal and Equal Other-ownership, or (2) Partial Ownership of One Group by Another--a system of rule by one class over another."
Source: The Ethics of Liberty
Translation: I either own myself or I'm a slave.
3. Societies with money and land as a commodity are impoverished because of the State's monopoly on force in how land is rightfully claimed and the monopoly on currency which assures the individual of being able to pay his tribute to the thrown.
I don't know of any society without poverty. In fact, that's not even logically possible since poverty is the default setting of a human being (as are capitalism and anarchy...all tied together).
You are born free from contract (especially the fictional social contract). You are impoverished (yet to see a kid slide out of a birthing canal who can rightfully mix his labor with unused resources to attain necessities). The child must rely on the charity of other individuals to sustain life (most commonly done by parents). As the child matures he must either rely solely on charity or be able to use his abilities to manipulate resources to sustain life. He can do this by finding unused resources, trading for used ones, buying used ones, or again...hope for charity. That's capitalism in a nutshell.
4. Capitalism doesn't "work" or "not work". It is because it is. That's it. The default setting of a human being. It doesn't punish or reward. It has no pride or prejudice. It simply is.
Scroll down and read Led Zepplein's quote on this paradigm. All the other isms are just attempts by humans to manipulate others via force. And force initiation is immoral and illogical. It immediately implies servitude (slavery) of one man to another.
“The first man who, having fenced in a piece of land, said "This is mine," and found people naïve enough to believe him, that man was the true founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: Beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody.”
― Jean-Jacques Rousseau, Discourse on the Origin of Inequality
Capitalism relies on the threat or use of violence to claim the world's resources for one particular person or corporation. Any claim that capitalism is "natural" fails because private ownership of the land is not a natural state. Societies with the concept of private ownership of the land as a commodity and which use money tend to be the ones with poverty. The more "primitive" societies which do not have this belief in private ownership of land or of land as a commodity or of measuring everything in terms of money do not have poverty. So of course the answer to the OP is you can't make capitalism "work" and eliminate poverty. Poverty and capitalism are forever intertwined.
You're naive; it's police and the threat of force are the only things that allow capitalism to survive. Without that, the have nots would try to take the haves' stuff
Ah yes, the anarchist is naive. The statist is wise.
Man A says humans are immoral, illogical, and violent. They will initiate force on others. The solution to this is to preordain a subset of humans (aka politicians) to commit immoral, illogical and violent acts on a preemptive basis in the name of the common good so that bad behavior may be reduced to an acceptable level (whatever level that may be cuz I have no clue and how it's even measured).
Man B says humans are immoral, illogical, and violent. They will initiate force on others. The solution to this is to not initiate force on others and only used defensive force when necessary. If you give a subset of humans the right to do bad things it stands to reason that bad people will just join that group so they can do bad stuff carte blanche.
1. Rousseau kept a copy of the Social Contract under his mattress much like a teen boy would keep a Playboy under his. I don't put much stock into anything that delusional megalomaniac had to say.
2. There are no corporations under capitalism because corporations are a creation of the fictional State. There is no State under capitalism.
3. Private ownership of land is natural. The land I homestead and mix my labor with ceases to be in its virgin form therefore any man who wishes to use that land must recognize my efforts. Do you not own the land directly under your feet at this very moment? If not, I have a right to remove you from it (by force).
Rothbard noted this when he argued in favor of self-ownership because the only logical alternatives are "(1) the 'communist' one of Universal and Equal Other-ownership, or (2) Partial Ownership of One Group by Another--a system of rule by one class over another."
Source: The Ethics of Liberty
Translation: I either own myself or I'm a slave.
3. Societies with money and land as a commodity are impoverished because of the State's monopoly on force in how land is rightfully claimed and the monopoly on currency which assures the individual of being able to pay his tribute to the thrown.
I don't know of any society without poverty. In fact, that's not even logically possible since poverty is the default setting of a human being (as are capitalism and anarchy...all tied together).
You are born free from contract (especially the fictional social contract). You are impoverished (yet to see a kid slide out of a birthing canal who can rightfully mix his labor with unused resources to attain necessities). The child must rely on the charity of other individuals to sustain life (most commonly done by parents). As the child matures he must either rely solely on charity or be able to use his abilities to manipulate resources to sustain life. He can do this by finding unused resources, trading for used ones, buying used ones, or again...hope for charity. That's capitalism in a nutshell.
4. Capitalism doesn't "work" or "not work". It is because it is. That's it. The default setting of a human being. It doesn't punish or reward. It has no pride or prejudice. It simply is.
Scroll down and read Led Zepplein's quote on this paradigm. All the other isms are just attempts by humans to manipulate others via force. And force initiation is immoral and illogical. It immediately implies servitude (slavery) of one man to another.
Humans in their more or less modern form have existed for somewhere around 300,000 years. Humans have only practiced agriculture for about 10,000 of those years. A blip on the radar essentially. The natural state of humans is not to claim ownership over a piece of land and stay there and farm it or mine it. It's to wander, following the wild food sources. That's how people dispersed and populated the world. Hunter-gatherer societies that survived into the present day or relatively recently which have been studied extensively by anthropologists show very much a lack of what we would call "poverty." There were no "homeless" people in these societies because they built their own shelters and no particular individual owned parcels of land measured out in terms of acres or whatever unit you choose to use. Even many primitive agrarian societies did not have what we call poverty. As land was a shared resource of the community. You can term it "communism" if you like but that was essentially what existed for thousands of years in many cultures. The entire community had equal access to the resources around them when it came to food, building materials, etc. These people had a completely different way of viewing the world around them and relationships between people than you do.
Humans in their more or less modern form have existed for somewhere around 300,000 years. Humans have only practiced agriculture for about 10,000 of those years. A blip on the radar essentially. The natural state of humans is not to claim ownership over a piece of land and stay there and farm it or mine it. It's to wander, following the wild food sources. That's how people dispersed and populated the world. Hunter-gatherer societies that survived into the present day or relatively recently which have been studied extensively by anthropologists show very much a lack of what we would call "poverty." There were no "homeless" people in these societies because they built their own shelters and no particular individual owned parcels of land measured out in terms of acres or whatever unit you choose to use. Even many primitive agrarian societies did not have what we call poverty. As land was a shared resource of the community. You can term it "communism" if you like but that was essentially what existed for thousands of years in many cultures. The entire community had equal access to the resources around them when it came to food, building materials, etc. These people had a completely different way of viewing the world around them and relationships between people than you do.
Uh...yeah, that's capitalism. You are failing to understand the baseline: born free from contract, impoverished, and must rely on charity until you can do for yourself. You can't get around that.
That means no social contract (anarchy), no State (anarchy), and must rely on charity (capitalism).
Communism is simply a condition a capitalist may choose to follow free from involuntary 3rd party force (the State). Communism is stateless.
This is why I rib Winterfall. He is a capitalist. A capitalist that simply chooses to be a communist under the paradigm of no State. I have no probably with communists as long as they leave me alone. I will choose to remain a capitalist when capitalism exists. Just a personal preference.
Being "homeless" has nothing to do with poverty. God, Santa Claus, or Bugs Bunny doesn't bestow food, water, and shelter on a human being at birth or at times when they are down on their luck. They must either receive charity, engage in capitalism, or die. Of course the other option is to use force...but that's why everyone has the right of defensive force.
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