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First it was 'slavery now, slavery tomorrow, slavery forever'.
Then a century or so goes by & it was 'segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever'.
In the present day, they say they would have opposed the Civil Rights Acts.
All while waving the Confederate flag, ideological & psychological descendants.
This is the thing, white supremacy IS their heritage, the flag was not hijacked or co-opted, it meant the same thing back then as it means today.
IMHO, they don't care about appearing to be polite or nice, they want to be presumed innocent, despite the historical record & evidence, same as it ever was.
Not buying it.
I don't respect people who would have opposed the Civil Rights Act. I can't do it. Saying "I oppose the Civil Rights Act" is basically saying "I oppose you having equal protection under the law" or "I oppose you having the same rights and privileges as I have".
The Confederate flag is a symbol of White supremacy. Some people try harder at hiding that fact that others. Part of me wants to believe that some people are just ignorant. And in some situations that is the case. However, there is information to prove that the Confederate cause was about keeping slavery around. Ignorance isn't much of an excuse. And many people are flying it as an "up yours"(I can't curse on city-data) to the post-1965 days. It is an "up yours" to what they feel is an attack on them. Slavery is over. Jim Crow is over. Now some persons feel they have nowhere to turn. Flying a Confederate flag for many has gone from overt resistance to covert resistance.
By nice and polite, this is where I'm coming from. I've been around people who seemed so nice and so polite. And then later down the road I find out some of those persons have bigoted, racist attitudes. And in some cases I didn't find out until I saw a post of their's on facebook. Wanting to be presumed innocent is definitely one goal some people look for.
I'm a lifelong Southerner. There's a lot about the South for which I'm proud. While neither a Republican nor a Conservative, I am not a Democrat or a Liberal either. When someone identifies with either of those, I tend to look for the lobotomy scars, for both ideologies are backward-looking and have serious problems. If we as a country allowed either side unfettered access to the levers of power, we'd have a bankrupt autocracy on our hands.
That being said, I cannot fathom how any intelligent person, Southerners especially, continues to defend the Confederacy or glorify our efforts in the Civil War. Read the articles of secession from each of the Southern states and, almost without exception, they name the defense of slavery as the singular or chief reason for leaving the Union. So when someone tells you who they are, even over the span of 159 years, you should really believe them.
The Civil War was, by any objective measure, a complete disaster for the South. It was a lemminglike crusade foisted on the country by slave owners to preserve an economic system that was rapidly becoming obsolete. It ruined the country economically for more than a century. Need proof? By some accounts, Alabama was the third-richest state in the Union per capita in 1860. While it certainly has made economic strides over the past 25 years in places such as Huntsville and Birmingham, it's only beginning to climb out of the cellar in terms of overall poverty.
The region's economy was destroyed, its infrastructure was destroyed, and a large percentage of its future leadership was buried in places such as Antietam and Vicksburg. Even more came home, saw the desolation, packed the family in a wago and left again for the West. And not only did the South have to be conquered, but it had to be punished too during Reconstruction.
So anyone who gets nostalgic about the Civil War strikes me as a kind of halfwit. I mean, one can certainly admire the fighting qualities of the individual Confederate soldier. One can study the tactical brilliance of a Stonewall Jackson. But that's not the same thing as tacking up a Confederate battle flag in your den. I mean, you can likewise have genuine respect for the fighting ability of the Wehrmacht in World War II. You can objectively speak to the genius of Rommel or Guderian. But that doesn't mean you hoist the swastika every April 20th, either.
I don't respect people who would have opposed the Civil Rights Act. I can't do it. Saying "I oppose the Civil Rights Act" is basically saying "I oppose you having equal protection under the law" or "I oppose you having the same rights and privileges as I have".
Are you including the Libertarian ideologues?
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner
The Confederate flag is a symbol of White supremacy. Some people try harder at hiding that fact that others. Part of me wants to believe that some people are just ignorant. And in some situations that is the case. However, there is information to prove that the Confederate cause was about keeping slavery around. Ignorance isn't much of an excuse. And many people are flying it as an "up yours"(I can't curse on city-data) to the post-1965 days. It is an "up yours" to what they feel is an attack on them. Slavery is over. Jim Crow is over. Now some persons feel they have nowhere to turn. Flying a Confederate flag for many has gone from overt resistance to covert resistance.
By nice and polite, this is where I'm coming from. I've been around people who seemed so nice and so polite. And then later down the road I find out some of those persons have bigoted, racist attitudes. And in some cases I didn't find out until I saw a post of their's on facebook. Wanting to be presumed innocent is definitely one goal some people look for.
From my experiences & perspective, it's not so much they are saying 'up yours' to what they feel is an attack, it's more so they are demonstrating their 'White Fragility'
Quote:
The following are examples of the kinds of challenges that trigger racial stress for white people:
...
Receiving feedback that one’s behavior had a racist impact (challenge to white racial innocence);
...
White Fragility: Why It’s So Hard to Talk to White People About Racism
These fragile white folks, these snowflakes, ( possible pun intended? ) including the ideologues, are all like “I do believe I have the vapors" if it is even slightly suggested, particularly when considering the mountain of historical evidence, that they just might not be so innocent.
It would be totally ludicrous if it were not so insidious.
"Very fine people on both sides" is yet another example of the 'oh dear Lord we must not ever ever ever ... offend these poor fragile white folk snowflakes.
I'm a lifelong Southerner. There's a lot about the South for which I'm proud. While neither a Republican nor a Conservative, I am not a Democrat or a Liberal either. When someone identifies with either of those, I tend to look for the lobotomy scars, for both ideologies are backward-looking and have serious problems. If we as a country allowed either side unfettered access to the levers of power, we'd have a bankrupt autocracy on our hands.
My family came to TX from TN after the Civil War. Almost Zero people glorify the CW today, identifies with that time period just like people in the North today identify with being a "Yankee" in the war. You almost never see that Flag at least in this part of the world. Maybe because Texas was not part of the deep south but I doubt it. It's just a old dead history.
That war is such a distant past that it is a past. My family fought in the Revolution also and to me, that is also just History.
Threads like this is just for people searching to find victimization where none exists. They are the Jussies of CD trying to create Racism because the actual supply in real life is not that available.
It's Cool to be a Victim in their world. They are digging deep to find a reason.
It's like Obama saying he always heard people lock their cars when he was in the parking lot. No, they locked their cars because it's the smart thing to do. He just saw it that way through his racist eyes.
My family came to TX from TN after the Civil War. Almost Zero people glorify the CW today, identifies with that time period just like people in the North today identify with being a "Yankee" in the war.
That war is such a distant past that it is a past. My family fought in the Revolution also and to me, that is also just History.
Threads like this is just for people searching to find victimization where none exists. They are the Jussies of CD trying to create Racism because the actual supply in real life is not that available.
It's Cool to be a Victim in their world. They are digging deep to find a reason.
I don't think you're right. In the Deep South there are plenty of people who absolutely fetishize the Confederate flag.
This is how I see some of the Libertarian ideologues. They get so focused on doctrine alone that they are blinded to reality. The reality is, sometimes the hammer needs to be laid down. The Civil Rights Act was that hammer being laid down. Some people will use libertarianism to hide behind their own prejudice.
Quote:
From my experiences & perspective, it's not so much they are saying 'up yours' to what they feel is an attack, it's more so they are demonstrating their 'White Fragility'
White Fragility: Why It’s So Hard to Talk to White People About Racism
These fragile white folks, these snowflakes, ( possible pun intended? ) including the ideologues, are all like “I do believe I have the vapors" if it is even slightly suggested, particularly when considering the mountain of historical evidence, that they just might not be so innocent.
It would be totally ludicrous if it were not so insidious.
"Very fine people on both sides" is yet another example of the 'oh dear Lord we must not ever ever ever ... offend these poor fragile white folk snowflakes.
Sheeesh, gag me.
I've never really thought of it as "white fragility". I have often seen it as an obstinate mindset. A mindset of anger and arrogance. This kind of thinking, from my own experience, is not limited to White people. I've seen non-Black minorities react in such a way. It's hard to talk about experiences with racism because some people who harbor prejudice think of it as they are the ones being attacked. Some individuals aren't displaying "fragility" but arrogance and anger. Some don't want to discuss some issues because they likely have a prejudice mindset and don't want to be challenged on it.
Trumps comments about "very fine people on both sides" makes me sick. I want to vomit. In my opinion, Trump sided with those Neo-Nazis and "proud boys" types, but wouldn't come right out and say so.
As for the Confederate flag, the same kind of hubris and rage can be seen the same way. Said persons aren't going to ask "why don't Blacks identify with the Confederate flag" because they don't care. Too much arrogance to care. Anger and hubris. This whole point of this thread was for more people to see the strong disconnect between how alot of Whites see the Confederate flag vs how alot of Blacks see it. I don't think it's so much "fragility" but trying to hide one's own feelings. Some people know the answer but won't say so, and don't care.
This is how I see some of the Libertarian ideologues. They get so focused on doctrine alone that they are blinded to reality. The reality is, sometimes the hammer needs to be laid down. The Civil Rights Act was that hammer being laid down. Some people will use libertarianism to hide behind their own prejudice.
Agree stubbornness is sometimes mistaken for stupidity. There's a web site dedicated to the concept: Libertarianism Makes You Stupid.
Also agree very strongly the ideology is not reality-based, it is much more faith-based, more like a religion perhaps akin to Scientology.
Personally, I think they tend to use the ideology to support their opposition to civil rights rather than use it to hide behind. Like, 'it pained those poor business owners during Jim Crow but they just had to post those signs'. They very often venerate business, & property owners & seem completely oblivious to the red-lining that existed throughout the Jim Crow years & throughout the Country. The ideology would support continuing these policies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner
I've never really thought of it as "white fragility". I have often seen it as an obstinate mindset. A mindset of anger and arrogance. This kind of thinking, from my own experience, is not limited to White people. I've seen non-Black minorities react in such a way. It's hard to talk about experiences with racism because some people who harbor prejudice think of it as they are the ones being attacked. Some individuals aren't displaying "fragility" but arrogance and anger. Some don't want to discuss some issues because they likely have a prejudice mindset and don't want to be challenged on it.
Trumps comments about "very fine people on both sides" makes me sick. I want to vomit. In my opinion, Trump sided with those Neo-Nazis and "proud boys" types, but wouldn't come right out and say so.
As for the Confederate flag, the same kind of hubris and rage can be seen the same way. Said persons aren't going to ask "why don't Blacks identify with the Confederate flag" because they don't care. Too much arrogance to care. Anger and hubris. This whole point of this thread was for more people to see the strong disconnect between how alot of Whites see the Confederate flag vs how alot of Blacks see it. I don't think it's so much "fragility" but trying to hide one's own feelings. Some people know the answer but won't say so, and don't care.
I think a big part of the reason for the obstinacy, anger, & arrogance is because they've been appeased for over a century. The creation & indoctrination of the 'Lost Cause' mythologies, the littering of public spaces with trashy Confederate monuments & statuary, the celebration of Confederate Memorial Day, the organized & tolerated opposition to civil rights, & so on, all of these have made them feel they are entitled to continue to do so.
I think a big part of the reason for the obstinacy, anger, & arrogance is because they've been appeased for over a century. The creation & indoctrination of the 'Lost Cause' mythologies, the littering of public spaces with trashy Confederate monuments & statuary, the celebration of Confederate Memorial Day, the organized & tolerated opposition to civil rights, & so on, all of these have made them feel they are entitled to continue to do so.
Bingo.
The leaders should have been hung and the rest treated like the traitors they were.
They were treated with far more generosity than they deserved. Confederates took this and ran with it. Jim Crow laws, monuments to traitors all over the place, ...
Confederate traitors ripped this nation apart a hundred and fifty years and ago and are still undermining it to this very day.
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) including the ideologues, are all like “I do believe I have the vapors" if it is even slightly suggested, particularly when considering the mountain of historical evidence, that they just might not be so innocent.