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I'd say one of these things is not like the other.
One of them is the real experience of a long term educated resident - along with real history and the other is "whatabout?".....
My nephew found a place to live in coastal SC and loves it - he will never leave. But demographics and other statistics do mean something.
One of the members here from SC has a little saying under their avatar "Come visit SC so you can feel better about where you live". None of us asked him or her to put it there.
Anyway, back to that Flag. SC is, historically...and even in the present day, one of the last to "give it all up"...it being the lost cause. They still use code words like "states rights"..and, remember, it was the GOP (Texas) that actually threatened succession relative recently.
Anyone who studies a bit of history and current events know what the score is. I just spoke tonight to a Jewish family who has been in the country for 100's of years - their people were from the south. Their 16 year old was drafted as a bugle boy into the Confederacy and they said "no way" and moved back to Europe (and then came back here). It wasn't because of war itself - but because as Jewish folks they couldn't stand the idea of fighting for oppression and slavery.
Let's leave it at this. Like any place...and any people....SC is what it does. If, like a formerly bad child, they straighten out their act they will be welcomed back into the league of mankind. If, on the other hand, they keep praying to those "Confederates in the Attic" (great book, BTW), then they will likely be shunned by more decent Americans for those particular actions and points of view.
Their choice.
I’m a native and educated South Carolinian. I have likely deeper ties to the state and more education than the other poster.
If someone slams the state where s/he lives, it just makes the person look nasty and like an idiot. Fix it or move, but complaining does nothing.
In the Americas, Brazil was the last country that abolished slavery in 1888. Mauritania was the last country in the world to abolish slavery, in 1981.
My post specifically referred to Western Societies that we were formed from...but, yes, surely some less developed places continued various form of it.
"the modern countries that the US was patterned after gave up slavery voluntarily"
Uh, you leave out many basics such as the fact the the modern countries that the US was patterned after gave up slavery voluntarily - due to MORALS AND ETHICS promoted by their own inner spirituality......well before the USA did.
Being the last "slaver" and the South wanted to continue. Why just another couple generations and we'd have slaves flying on airliners. Imagine that. We wouldn't have as many dying on the trip over!
and Lincoln waged war on the South for morals and ethical reasons? he never used that reason or never mention it. He waged war for taxes and keep the South in the Union. He said it many times. You should read the Corwin Amendment and come back to me, you keep ignoring that key part of history that shows Lincoln and the North could care less about slavery in the South as long that the North collected the taxes and controlled the economy from slavery.
Reminds me of the Mafia: " I don't care if your family makes your revenues on gambling, prostitution, drugs and criminal activity as long that you pay your taxes to the Boss and let him control the revenues or else I will destroy your family and your crew and everybody in your city and towns that refuse ".....that is what Lincoln did and you want to talk about morals and ethics? LMAO!!!
When the South started Secession, Lincoln was asked, "Why not let the South go in peace?" To which he replied, "I can't let them go. Who would pay for the government?" Sensing total financial ruin for the North, Lincoln waged war on the South. The South fought the War to repel Northern aggression and invasion.
The Confederate flag iS a part of southern heritage...for whites.
African Americans, an integral part of the South (the people who actually cleared the land, drained the swamps and planted the seeds at the plantations that made the South viable), have never considered the Confederate flag as part of their heritage. And African Americans as a race are the MOST southern American ethnic group in this country. Nearly all of us are descendants of the 4 million slaves in the South. No other group can make that claim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner
With that said, if a symbol is suppose to represent the South, it should be a unifying force for everyone. The Confederate flag is not a unifying force for African-Americans. I certainly don't see any African-Americans in Georgia trying to claim it as theirs. I've said that a majority of African-Americans are southerners. All the more reason to ask the question why most African-Americans don't claim the Confederate flag as their "southern heritage".
H.K. Edgerton, not stupid, but more learned ... Southern Heritage 411
"The ancestors of most blacks living in the United States today supported the Confederacy and have a right to be proud of their ancestor's service to the South. The Confederate Battle Flag is their flag also."
"While today’s Confederate battle flag appears much the same as it did in the 1860s—as it has been copied on everything from state flags to coffee cups—its associations have shifted significantly over time. To understand why we’re still fighting about its symbolic meaning, you have to understand how it has been used since the Civil War, particularly in the last 80 years, as new meanings for the flag have been forged."
"Four years ago, I became a national news story after I hung a Confederate flag in my dorm room window at the University of South Carolina Beaufort. Controversy wasn’t my intention. For me and many Southerners, the flag celebrates my heritage and regional pride. One of my ancestors, Benjamin Thomas, was a black Confederate cook, and I do not want to turn my back on his service to the South. So I hang the flag in honor of his hard work and dedication to South Carolina during the Civil War.
<snip>
I fought back against the racist interpretation of the flag and I won.
<snip>
I love the Confederate flag, but I love South Carolina and its citizens more. While the flag’s existence on the statehouse grounds never offended me — and it still does not today — I can’t ignore the deep pain that it causes for many people in my state. I can’t ignore that many can’t love South Carolina as I do until the flag is removed." (gaslight: manipulate (someone) by psychological means into questioning their own sanity.)
Southerners are some very proud LOSERS. The like to claim that the War of Southern Treason was fought over "states rights".
They don't like to talk about the fact that the "state right" in question was the institution of slavery. Well... at least they don't like to talk about that among people who aren't self-righteous white southerners.
Only a matter of time before many of the same clowns and anti-white racists that whine about and want that flag banned and any statues associated with it to want the U.S. flag banned for having flown on slave ships or they'll simply damage property on their own, laws be damned.
A few years ago I bought a Confederate flag simply because there was so much fuss and hate over it and monuments associated with it I thought I'd get one before most sellers stopped selling them and also as a form of political protest to all those reactionaries that suddenly jumped on the hate confederate anything banned wagon. Funny and silly they cancelled the Dukes of Hazzard for having the flag on top of their Charger. I was never a regular watcher of the show. I believe they had record sales of that flag at the time.
I don't even live in the south. But all those violent haters had no right to tear down those statues. If you want them removed contact the proper authorities and request to have them removed.
and Lincoln waged war on the South for morals and ethical reasons? he never used that reason or never mention it. He waged war for taxes and keep the South in the Union. He said it many times. You should read the Corwin Amendment and come back to me, you keep ignoring that key part of history that shows Lincoln and the North could care less about slavery in the South as long that the North collected the taxes and controlled the economy from slavery.
Reminds me of the Mafia: " I don't care if your family makes your revenues on gambling, prostitution, drugs and criminal activity as long that you pay your taxes to the Boss and let him control the revenues or else I will destroy your family and your crew and everybody in your city and towns that refuse ".....that is what Lincoln did and you want to talk about morals and ethics? LMAO!!!
When the South started Secession, Lincoln was asked, "Why not let the South go in peace?" To which he replied, "I can't let them go. Who would pay for the government?" Sensing total financial ruin for the North, Lincoln waged war on the South. The South fought the War to repel Northern aggression and invasion.
History books, the media, the school systems, etc abound in falsehoods and inaccuracies of Confederate and Southern history. This fact sheet will help to clarify and dispell some of these rampant inaccuracies.
Southerners are some very proud LOSERS. The like to claim that the War of Southern Treason was fought over "states rights".
They don't like to talk about the fact that the "state right" in question was the institution of slavery. Well... at least they don't like to talk about that among people who aren't self-righteous white southerners.
In case you aren't aware, nobody alive today in the US was a US slave and nobody alive today won or lost the US civil war. If you consider yourself a winner/loser because of who won or lost the civil war you need mental help.
Southerners are some very proud LOSERS. The like to claim that the War of Southern Treason was fought over "states rights".
They don't like to talk about the fact that the "state right" in question was the institution of slavery. Well... at least they don't like to talk about that among people who aren't self-righteous white southerners.
"Union soldiers robbed, raped and murdered Free Black and slave Southerners they had come to "emancipate." Union "recruiters" hunted, kidnapped and tortured Black Southerners to compel them to serve in the Union Army. At the Battle of the Crater white Union soldiers bayoneted retreating Black Union soldiers and the 54th Massachusetts was intentionally fired upon by Union Maine troops while assaulting Battery Wagner. The Federal Official Records and memoirs of the USCT document all of these war crimes."
Here there is sufficient evidence in the concrete that slavery was not the avowed cause of the conflict. If there was this uncertain notion of the cause of the war among northern sympathizers, how much more befogged must have been the minds of the southern slaves in the hands of men who imagined that they were fighting for the same principles involved in our earliet struggle with Great Britain! To the majority of the Negroes, as to all the South, the invading armies of the Union seemed to be ruthlessly attacking independent States, invading the beloved homeland and trampling upon all that these men held dear.
The loyalty of the slave while the master was away with the fighting forces of the Confederacy has been the making of many orators of an earlier day, echoes of which we often hear in the present. The Negroes were not only loyal in remaining at home and doing their duty but also in offering themselves for actual service in the Confederate army. [The Journal of Negro History Vol. 4, No. 3 (Jul., 1919), pp 239 - 253 (15 pages)]
[quote=craigiri;54398416]I'd say one of these things is not like the other.
One of them is the real experience of a long term educated resident - along with real history and the other is "whatabout?".....
My nephew found a place to live in coastal SC and loves it - he will never leave. But demographics and other statistics do mean something.
One of the members here from SC has a little saying under their avatar "Come visit SC so you can feel better about where you live". None of us asked him or her to put it there.
Anyway, back to that Flag. SC is, historically...and even in the present day, one of the last to "give it all up"...it being the lost cause. They still use code words like "states rights"..and, remember, it was the GOP (Texas) that actually threatened succession relative recently.
Anyone who studies a bit of history and current events know what the score is. I just spoke tonight to a Jewish family who has been in the country for 100's of years - their people were from the south. Their 16 year old was drafted as a bugle boy into the Confederacy and they said "no way" and moved back to Europe (and then came back here). It wasn't because of war itself - but because as Jewish folks they couldn't stand the idea of fighting for oppression and slavery.
Let's leave it at this. Like any place...and any people....SC is what it does. If, like a formerly bad child, they straighten out their act they will be welcomed back into the league of mankind. If, on the other hand, they keep praying to those "Confederates in the Attic" (great book, BTW), then they will likely be shunned by more decent Americans for those particular actions and points of view.
Their choice.[/QUOTE]
It looks like the state of SC is certainly not shunned, I just read that it is the 9th fastest growing state in the country.
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