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I have already explained that most dentist, opticians, residential homes for the elderly and hospices are not NHS run.
You've already been debunked on that. I posted 2 different sources which specifically stated that the UK's NHS trusts were the problem behind UK's inadequate access to health care to the point that those with treatable eye disease were just simply left to go blind.
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
27,606 posts, read 14,610,214 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalExpectations
I'm showing you the error of your thinking. Offering up ice cream cones to children always elicits an answer of "YES!!!!".
The way the question is always phrased, "single payer" is code for "someone else payer". There is no one else: it is all of us.
Most goods and services purchased by the government (at the federal, state and local levels) are goods & services where it is more efficient or more effective for the purchasing to be centralized - such as the commonly identified defense, pharmaceutical industry safety, agricultural inspections for safety, police forces, fire departments, and the like.
The purchase of medical care does not fit that model.
"Single Payer" does not solve the problem that medical care costs too darn much in this country.
In the early 1960s, before LBJ's disastrous federal expansion via the "Great Society" experiment, on average across the nation, we'd each consume about 6 days worth of our total annual compensation on medical care. The "Great Society" started the inexorable escalation in medical expenditures. Nowadays, on average across the nation, we each consume north of 60 days worth of our annual compensation on medical care.
The problem that needs to be addressed is that medical care costs too darn much, not who pays for it. "Single Payer" just rearranges the deck chairs on the Titanic:
after implementing a hypothetical single-payer system, we STILL would consume north of $11K-ish per person per year on average.
after implementing a hypothetical single-payer system, we STILL would consume, on average across the nation about 60 days worth of our annual compensation on medical care.
Single Payer doesn't solve the problem, does it?
Even if you reduced the cost of most drugs and procedures by 50%, the majority still wouldn't be able to afford treatment in a modern US style for profit system.
The point of single payer is that not everyone consumes healthcare at the same time, so it's better to treat it like social security, where everyone pays in when they work (or buy something if a national sales tax is also enacted), so the few who need it at a given time then consume it with no bill at the point of service.
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Location: Great Britain
27,182 posts, read 13,469,799 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent
You've already been debunked on that. I posted 2 different sources which specifically stated that the UK's NHS trusts were the problem behind UK's inadequate access to health care to the point that those with treatable eye disease were just simply left to go blind.
No you didm't you just posted some nonsense about A&E Waiting Times, which were badly effected by a flu outbreak a few years ago, and the same fku outbreak effected private hospitals in other countries.
The NHS Trusts have been issued guidance, and Parliament as recently made new reccomendations and it also should be noted that each hospital and trust is subject to regular inspection by the Care Quality Commission in England & Wales and Care Inspectorate in Scotland.
A Department of Health spokesman said: ‘It is completely unacceptable for CCGs to ignore crucial clinical guidelines … to ensure cataract patients get fair and consistent access to the best possible treatment for their needs.’
It's also fairly easy to solve the problem by simply maing Guidelines to offer surgery which were ordered by former Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt legally binding, which is what is being considered. Indeed the guidelines should have been legally binding in the first place.
As for the NHS it has received a £20 Billion budget boost, and in terms of expenditure the UK already meets the European average.
In terms of private healthcare, there is private health insurance available in the UK and private laser eye surgery is included. UK Private heakth insurance is usually cheaper because the NHS deals with emergecy medicine and most serious conditions.
The point of single payer is that not everyone consumes healthcare at the same time, so it's better to treat it like social security, where everyone pays in when they work (or buy something if a national sales tax is also enacted), so the few who need it at a given time then consume it with no bill at the point of service.
Your logic is fatally flawed. Using your logic, the same approach could be taken with food - just enact more taxes, and then people consume food with no bill at the point of delivery of the food (grocery stores.)
Once again, Single Payer, a.k.a. Someone Else Payer, does not solve the underlying problem that medical care costs too much in this country.
The ONLY thing that will address the problem is finding a way to rip much of the cost out of the system.
Focusing on who pays just rearranges the deck chairs on the Titanic. "Who pays" is irrelevant. "How much in total is paid" is the issue that must be addressed.
Your proposal that there is no bill at the point of service is so far from rational thought as to be laughable - except I think you actually meant it.
I can continue to explain this to you, but sadly I can't understand it for you.
What are you going on about, the issue was highlighted in a recent Parliamentary report and reccomendations made by a Parliamentary Select committee and the CCG's hace clear guidance on the issue which the Department of Health will make legally binding if they don't act upon it. I put a link to the report in a previous post.
The Department of Health have already stated that ‘It is completely unacceptable for CCGs to ignore crucial clinical guidelines … to ensure cataract patients get fair and consistent access to the best possible treatment for their needs.’
There is no excuse for this, and the media highlighting the issue will put further pressure to makes such guidelines legally binding.
However overall the NHS offers a very good system and is very popular in the UK, as for opticians and dentistry they are usually private scetor, however in terms of conditions that can cause blindness or in relation to serious dental issues it is the NHS which should shoulder the burden.
As for your link it doesn't show anything other than the Royal College of Ophthalmologists, who have already given evidence to Parliament on the issue and CCG's should be adhering to NICE Guidelines, and in this case former health minster Jeemy Hunt shuld have made the guidelines legally binding.
As for the NHS it's been given estra resources by the Government and the UK already spends an average European percent of GDP on healthcare.
Last edited by Brave New World; 04-14-2019 at 11:47 AM..
5. Dental & Vision & Hearing ― Most health insurance plans do not include dental, vision, or hearing. If you want coverage, you’ll have to buy a separate plan that includes one, or sometimes all, of these services. But before you buy a plan, know that they are not regulated by the ACA, which means they have no specific requirements in terms of what must be covered. They also typically don’t have any limits on out-of-pocket costs. “Honestly, if you look at the cost of getting a dental cleaning which is $110 twice a year where I live, the cost of paying monthly fee for dental insurance is so much more than that, so the insurance isn’t worth it,” says Rickard. If you are eligible for Medicare, Original Medicare does not cover dental, vision, or hearing, but there are some Medicare Advantage plans that do.
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
27,606 posts, read 14,610,214 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalExpectations
Your logic is fatally flawed. Using your logic, the same approach could be taken with food - just enact more taxes, and then people consume food with no bill at the point of delivery of the food (grocery stores.)
Once again, Single Payer, a.k.a. Someone Else Payer, does not solve the underlying problem that medical care costs too much in this country.
The ONLY thing that will address the problem is finding a way to rip much of the cost out of the system.
Focusing on who pays just rearranges the deck chairs on the Titanic. "Who pays" is irrelevant. "How much in total is paid" is the issue that must be addressed.
Your proposal that there is no bill at the point of service is so far from rational thought as to be laughable - except I think you actually meant it.
I can continue to explain this to you, but sadly I can't understand it for you.
It is NOT logically flawed, otherwise NO other country would have single payer, yet over 20 countries DO. So give it up
And yes I was serious about no bill at the point of use. That's how it works in Canada, the UK, France etc. No deductibles and no co pays!
You'd have to be living in a hole somewhere in the Arctic not to have heard hundreds, if not thousands, of horror stories regarding the US healthcare system or the cost of prescription medications.
You're being ridiculous on purpose, because you don't like single payer, so you feel you have to strawman it
Single payer will not fix a broken system, a system totally broken by the actions of your own governments over the last 90 years.
All you want to do is spray-paint a house of cards.
You can spray-paint it any color you want, it's still going to collapse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy
There was no hospitals for them to go to
Thank you for proving you don't have right.
I should probably point out they didn't have guitars or pianos, either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brave New World
Some medical conditions are self induced, however in terms of universal healthcare you have access to a local family doctor who will offer services aimed at leading a healthier life including diet advice and will prescribe medication such as statins or tablets to lower blood pressure etc.
We have that now, it's very expensive and it doesn't work, because people will always do what they want to do, unless they're compelled or forced at gun-point not to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalExpectations
"Single Payer" does not solve the problem that medical care costs too darn much in this country.
Truly amazing that so few of us understand that.
It's not rocket science.
These morons want single payer only because they think health insurance costs too much but are too stupid to understand the cost of health insurance is totally depending on the cost of medical care, which is grotesquely over-inflated by the hospital monopoly cartels that illegally collude to illegally fix prices way higher than they should be.
As soon as all 50 States repeal the laws that allow hospitals to operate as monopolies and the States start pursuing anti-trust actions against the hospital cartels, the price of medical care drops 30%-60%.
That causes the price of health insurance to drop 30%-60%.
Then the US will be like Switzerland.
Well, sort of.
There's one more thing that needs be done.
The States and federal government need to devise a tax or fee scheme to punish hospitals financially, so that it is unprofitable to run a hospital.
That will force the hospitals to break up into clinics and polyclinics, like Germany and Romania and the Netherlands and France and Poland and Austria and Hungaria and the rest.
That will reduce medical costs another 10%-20% and then health insurance will drop another 10%-20%.
That will be more like Switzerland, but believe me, you don't want to be exactly like Switzerland.
When Liberals are willing to take common sense actions, I'll be more inclined to listen to their specious arguments.
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