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No virtue signaling, simple recognition of reality. I added the white man part for you, so you didn't attempt to write me off as an "angry feminist" with an agenda. Anyone who attempts to argue that society today is, in general, stacked against men is simply delusional.
I know what you said. You're miscomprehending my reply. Challenges to cultural dogma can be good. They also can be bad. The simple fact that they challenge a cultural dogma does not make them good, necessarily.
I get where you're coming from with the notion that white men are considered to be at the tippy top of the privilege pyramid...but I cannot deny the reality that they are also committing suicide at increasingly high rates. Sometimes what looks like it should be a perfect, easy, happy life...isn't. (Robin Williams and others.)
So when a man is in difficulty, I'm prepared to hear him.
But where I draw the line is the projected BS of "all women are this" and "all men are that" and "all relationships are like so" and the idea that a human is a helpless puppet to their biological wiring that makes all of men's needs completely reasonable and all of women's needs conniving and evil. It's a whole lot of bad argument to prop up salty, angry feelings and pin them on other people rather than facing any of one's own demons.
But this makes me think, though, because many men I've known have told me that they prefer to be angry, than to face any kind of other emotional state. I think that sorrow, depression, not only is that not seen as "manly" but it makes a person feel helpless. It is dwelling inside the suffering. Turning it into anger, feels empowering somehow. But I believe that it is a lie one tells oneself, that calling it "anger" rather than something else, reduces one's own personal suffering, or that in punishing others, you have stopped punishing yourself. Because these guys...including the only one I know in real life as a very good example...make themselves suffer more than they make anyone else suffer. It is taking poison and hoping that your enemy will die.
And I think that some of the bad actors of the feminist movements have been exactly the same. Rather than facing whatever trauma may have brought them there, and making peace with their existence in a society that includes men, they're turning the knives outward on an external target to try and feel empowered. But if you go around with a head full of toxic negativity, whatever you want to call it, you're still punishing yourself.
I've read many hundreds of Mgtow threads. No doubt, there is a lot of anger in their discussions. But if you read their reasons, most of it is not at all similar to the "toxic masculinity" coming from feminists. Some of these men have been divorced raped, marriage destroyed by cheating wife, assests siezed, false charges of child abuse on their own children, so some are left with payments and wife gets everything else.(these are not extreme example, my brother was an abused husband, divorced, wife got kids, house, she never worked, and my brother has to live in my mothers unremodeled basement).
Some of these men haveendured abudive single mothers.
Some men justlook at the risks of being divorce and decide the risks and potential cost and suffering are too gresome also look at a very unlevel playing field in the job market and in higher education.
So read some of their comments and put yourself in their shoes.
I get where you're coming from with the notion that white men are considered to be at the tippy top of the privilege pyramid...but I cannot deny the reality that they are also committing suicide at increasingly high rates. Sometimes what looks like it should be a perfect, easy, happy life...isn't. (Robin Williams and others.)
So when a man is in difficulty, I'm prepared to hear him.
But where I draw the line is the projected BS of "all women are this" and "all men are that" and "all relationships are like so" and the idea that a human is a helpless puppet to their biological wiring that makes all of men's needs completely reasonable and all of women's needs conniving and evil. It's a whole lot of bad argument to prop up salty, angry feelings and pin them on other people rather than facing any of one's own demons.
But this makes me think, though, because many men I've known have told me that they prefer to be angry, than to face any kind of other emotional state. I think that sorrow, depression, not only is that not seen as "manly" but it makes a person feel helpless. It is dwelling inside the suffering. Turning it into anger, feels empowering somehow. But I believe that it is a lie one tells oneself, that calling it "anger" rather than something else, reduces one's own personal suffering, or that in punishing others, you have stopped punishing yourself. Because these guys...including the only one I know in real life as a very good example...make themselves suffer more than they make anyone else suffer. It is taking poison and hoping that your enemy will die.
And I think that some of the bad actors of the feminist movements have been exactly the same. Rather than facing whatever trauma may have brought them there, and making peace with their existence in a society that includes men, they're turning the knives outward on an external target to try and feel empowered. But if you go around with a head full of toxic negativity, whatever you want to call it, you're still punishing yourself.
Wherever you go, there you are.
Very insightful. I wish I could give you rep points for this post, but I’m all tapped out.
I get where you're coming from with the notion that white men are considered to be at the tippy top of the privilege pyramid...but I cannot deny the reality that they are also committing suicide at increasingly high rates. Sometimes what looks like it should be a perfect, easy, happy life...isn't. (Robin Williams and others.)
So when a man is in difficulty, I'm prepared to hear him.
But where I draw the line is the projected BS of "all women are this" and "all men are that" and "all relationships are like so" and the idea that a human is a helpless puppet to their biological wiring that makes all of men's needs completely reasonable and all of women's needs conniving and evil. It's a whole lot of bad argument to prop up salty, angry feelings and pin them on other people rather than facing any of one's own demons.
But this makes me think, though, because many men I've known have told me that they prefer to be angry, than to face any kind of other emotional state. I think that sorrow, depression, not only is that not seen as "manly" but it makes a person feel helpless. It is dwelling inside the suffering. Turning it into anger, feels empowering somehow. But I believe that it is a lie one tells oneself, that calling it "anger" rather than something else, reduces one's own personal suffering, or that in punishing others, you have stopped punishing yourself. Because these guys...including the only one I know in real life as a very good example...make themselves suffer more than they make anyone else suffer. It is taking poison and hoping that your enemy will die.
And I think that some of the bad actors of the feminist movements have been exactly the same. Rather than facing whatever trauma may have brought them there, and making peace with their existence in a society that includes men, they're turning the knives outward on an external target to try and feel empowered. But if you go around with a head full of toxic negativity, whatever you want to call it, you're still punishing yourself.
Wherever you go, there you are.
I also wish I could rep you.
RE the bolded, it's not just a preference, we are looked down on by others (male and female) for strong displays of emotion, other than anger, which is given a pass for some reason. The more weakness we show, the more others lose respect for us and turn on us, especially other guys...again as seen by several responses in this thread ("they're just losers who can't get laid, hur hur"). That is the real toxic masculinity that needs to be dealt with. Men should be strong and deal with their s#!t, but we shouldn't have to be afraid of acknowledging feelings openly.
I get where you're coming from with the notion that white men are considered to be at the tippy top of the privilege pyramid...but I cannot deny the reality that they are also committing suicide at increasingly high rates. Sometimes what looks like it should be a perfect, easy, happy life...isn't. (Robin Williams and others.)
Having advantage or success doesn't mean your happy. See your same examples for proof positive of that. It doesn't change reality that "the system" in America is unarguably still tilted in favor of men, across the board. In divorce court? Not so much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
So when a man is in difficulty, I'm prepared to hear him.
As am I. I'm not prepared to swallow his excuses without question, however. Ever known an addict? They can run down a litany of "reasons" that they're helpless to behave differently at the drop of a hat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
But where I draw the line is the projected BS of "all women are this" and "all men are that" and "all relationships are like so" and the idea that a human is a helpless puppet to their biological wiring that makes all of men's needs completely reasonable and all of women's needs conniving and evil. It's a whole lot of bad argument to prop up salty, angry feelings and pin them on other people rather than facing any of one's own demons.
Absolutely agreed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
But this makes me think, though, because many men I've known have told me that they prefer to be angry, than to face any kind of other emotional state. I think that sorrow, depression, not only is that not seen as "manly" but it makes a person feel helpless. It is dwelling inside the suffering. Turning it into anger, feels empowering somehow. But I believe that it is a lie one tells oneself, that calling it "anger" rather than something else, reduces one's own personal suffering, or that in punishing others, you have stopped punishing yourself. Because these guys...including the only one I know in real life as a very good example...make themselves suffer more than they make anyone else suffer. It is taking poison and hoping that your enemy will die.
Well said. The patriarchy in our society is certainly not without its downside(s) and you've covered a few quite well above. Add to that our society's general stigma attached to mental health issues in general and it only compounds the effect for men.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork
And I think that some of the bad actors of the feminist movements have been exactly the same. Rather than facing whatever trauma may have brought them there, and making peace with their existence in a society that includes men, they're turning the knives outward on an external target to try and feel empowered. But if you go around with a head full of toxic negativity, whatever you want to call it, you're still punishing yourself.
Without question, in my mind. They are opposite sides of the same coin and are largely motivated by the same things.
LOL!! Actually my Dad picked up that quote somewhere and said it often as I was growing up, and I had no idea what he meant then. Now I'm with this dude who is really into all the "Zen of..." self help literature and speaking in bumper stickers and vaguely Buddhist sourced philosophy stuff, which resonates with a whole lot of what I've always believed just from living life.
But my boyfriend did not so long ago, have me watch Buckaroo Banzai, when he discovered I hadn't seen it. Oddly I don't remember that as a line from that movie (though it doesn't surprise me)...but holy wow what a ridiculous film that was. It makes me nearly giggle just thinking of it.
I've read many hundreds of Mgtow threads. No doubt, there is a lot of anger in their discussions. But if you read their reasons, most of it is not at all similar to the "toxic masculinity" coming from feminists. Some of these men have been divorced raped, marriage destroyed by cheating wife, assests siezed, false charges of child abuse on their own children, so some are left with payments and wife gets everything else.(these are not extreme example, my brother was an abused husband, divorced, wife got kids, house, she never worked, and my brother has to live in my mothers unremodeled basement).
Some of these men haveendured abudive single mothers.
Some men justlook at the risks of being divorce and decide the risks and potential cost and suffering are too gresome also look at a very unlevel playing field in the job market and in higher education.
So read some of their comments and put yourself in their shoes.
What does that have to do with Pictures of women hitting the Wall, a very long thread on their forum, with photos of older women they mock as being ugly. This has nothing to do with a bad divorce story, it's just mean and stupid.
Again, no insight into what they might have done differently or any responsibility on their part as to why their marriage(s) went bad.
No one is stopping men from pursuing higher education. There is a wide open field for men to pursue lucrative trades, yet for some reason there is little interest.
Exactly. These men are "going their own way" because women already up and went a few decades ago. Women no longer need to sit around and wait for a man to come along and take care of them, so they are much pickier in choosing a mate. The MGTOW guys are what we used to call male chauvinists. They are terrified of strong women, but unfortunately for them, the Stepford Wives of old are getting fewer and further between.
It's a good thing that these misogynists are taking themselves out of the gene pool. Their offspring will not be missed in the future.
Yes, I can see how women who can think for themselves would be intimidating to you.
LOL!! Actually my Dad picked up that quote somewhere and said it often as I was growing up, and I had no idea what he meant then. Now I'm with this dude who is really into all the "Zen of..." self help literature and speaking in bumper stickers and vaguely Buddhist sourced philosophy stuff, which resonates with a whole lot of what I've always believed just from living life.
But my boyfriend did not so long ago, have me watch Buckaroo Banzai, when he discovered I hadn't seen it. Oddly I don't remember that as a line from that movie (though it doesn't surprise me)...but holy wow what a ridiculous film that was. It makes me nearly giggle just thinking of it.
Thanks for the smile.
My pleasure! It is, in fact, a quote from the movie:
Hey, hey, hey, hey-now. Don't be mean; we don't have to be mean, cuz, remember, no matter where you go, there you are. --Buckaroo Banzai
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