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Okay... I'm not sure what to make of all this. I have read several things... from reports that one girl has a tooth missing (indicative of losing a "baby" tooth that shouldn't happen to someone at the age they are supposed to be). Then, there's the Xinua news report of a girl being 13 instead of 16. Now, there's a computer expert who found a girl (not sure if it's the same as previously mentioned) who is also not the proper age.
What's causing me some frustration is that it "appears" to me that the IOC is trying to sweep it under the rug. Say they have all the information they need. Done deal. Where was this satisfaction when the allegations of doping were ringing up for Marion Jones? I think she got what she deserved, don't get me wrong, but the hounds were released for that one. Where are those hounds now? I think if the IOC put a fraction of effort into really finding out the reported discrepances as they did for Jones, we see more medals being given back.
If they DO do the right thing, and the Chinese girl is found to be too young, what then? All of Jones teammates were stripped of their medals. Do we do the same to China? Strip not just the girl, but all of the China gymnastics team's medals?
Is this even a big deal, or sour grapes from a nation that was investigated?
I say consistency in an organization (referring to the IOC). If they investigate to ground for 3 years one event, take more than 2 weeks a second. If they want to maintain any credibility at all, this is something they have no choice but to do.
Here is a link to a story which has a provocative headline.
Are you taking the position that it is a done deal and that the girl is underage? Just checking.
She looks young. Baby tooth? I had a Chinese buddy back in high school who had a baby tooth. Can a pediatric dentist please chime in? Where is Lt. Colombo when you need him?
I would like to see some good old fashioned proof.
My bottom line is that I don't know. I would not bet my life on it either way. I would not be making accusations or talking smack either.
When you ask:
Is this even a big deal, or sour grapes from a nation that was investigated?
Are you referring to the USA as the nation investigated? or China?
Last edited by Bob The Builder; 08-22-2008 at 08:00 AM..
Are you taking the position that it is a done deal and that the girl is underage? Just checking.
No... I don't know. I'm not taking any position because I don't know. If she is underage, there should be similar penalties as Marion Jones (i.e. the whole gymnastics team loses their medals she was involved with from a team aspect, she turns all of hers in, etc.) My position is to wait until the facts are in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob The Builder
When you ask: Is this even a big deal, or sour grapes from a nation that was investigated? Are you referring to the USA as the nation investigated? or China?
I was referring to the U.S. I don't know.. but most of the complaints and digging for answers seems to be prompted by the U.S. I was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts as to whether they have a legitimate complaint, whether they (the U.S.) is mad because we took silver instead of gold, or whether they (the U.S.) is mad because Marion Jones was investigated harder than this.
My bottom line is that it appears on the surface to me that the IOC is brushing this under the table. This is only the 2nd week of the Olympics, and they are saying they have all the proof they need.. but they (the IOC) dug for three years on the doping charge of Jones. Just want to see equal effort be given to both accusations.
Here are links to my friend's son who is on the USA fencing team. Can someone please tell me how tall he is?
But height isn't a requirement to get into the Olympics, is it? (Don't want to look too dumb here, but there may be... I don't know). Age is, however.
Not arguing with whether or not anyone under the age of 16 can participate (physically)... but if it's against the current rules not to be able to participate under the age of 16.. then it's against the rules.
Actually, CNN reported today that IOC finally asked gymnastics officials to look into whether China's women's gymnastics team used underaged competitors. Mind you, it's not a full blown investigation, but I guess IOC could no longer sit quietly and ignore its critics.
I personally have no faith in IOC whatsoever. I think they're just doing this to satisfy its critics, half-heartedly.
As for the Chinese gymnasts, I feel sorry for them. They are truly gifted and they did better than any other teams at the Ollie during the team final competition. The sorry part is, their win is now tarnished due to clouds of accusations and controversy surrounding their true age. And until IOC takes a real effort to get a hard proof to prove their innocence or otherwise, their win will be tarnished forever.
I feel just as bad for Marion Jones' teammates who were all stripped of their medals for her actions. Different year, different violation... but should be same results.
No... I don't know. I'm not taking any position because I don't know. If she is underage, there should be similar penalties as Marion Jones (i.e. the whole gymnastics team loses their medals she was involved with from a team aspect, she turns all of hers in, etc.) My position is to wait until the facts are in.
I was referring to the U.S. I don't know.. but most of the complaints and digging for answers seems to be prompted by the U.S. I was just wondering if anyone had any thoughts as to whether they have a legitimate complaint, whether they (the U.S.) is mad because we took silver instead of gold, or whether they (the U.S.) is mad because Marion Jones was investigated harder than this.
My bottom line is that it appears on the surface to me that the IOC is brushing this under the table. This is only the 2nd week of the Olympics, and they are saying they have all the proof they need.. but they (the IOC) dug for three years on the doping charge of Jones. Just want to see equal effort be given to both accusations.
With doping, you have to establish a fact of doping. This is done through 1) scientific tests of blood samples and/or some testimony of witnesses.
In the Jones case, I think it was a new test on a blood sample that gave her up. Due process was extended to her and she was found to have been doped up.
With age, this is a document and witness thing.
What are the rules of evidence that are applicable? As I recall, official documents like Passports and birth certificates have presumptive evidence. People might not like it, but thems the rules.
The fact that an unofficial document says something else carries much less weight than the official docs.
There is a huge burden of proof to overcome this presumption of age derived from her official docs and no amount of whining is or should change that.
It is quite hypocritical that there are people ready to burn the Chinese gymnasts at the cross without due process: something that they accuse the Chinese Government of doing all the time.
But height isn't a requirement to get into the Olympics, is it? (Don't want to look too dumb here, but there may be... I don't know). Age is, however.
Not arguing with whether or not anyone under the age of 16 can participate (physically)... but if it's against the current rules not to be able to participate under the age of 16.. then it's against the rules.
My point is that documentation can say anything. People often make errors intentionally or unintentionally which can cut either way.
With official documents like passports or birth certificates there is a presumptive effect under our federal evidence code. Who are we to say that the USA gymnastic teams' girls aren't under age as well.
This is a delicate situation, since we, the Americans, want to be best buddies with the Chinese Communists.
I doubt anything will happen. It will still be swept under the rug.
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