Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
THAT has nothing to do whatsoever with the fact that the school is private vs public... because guess what.. the SAME curriculum is TAUGHT in private as is taught in PUBLIC!!
Where on earth would you get that idea?
Quote:
BTW.. not one of the schools listed on that international study are PRIVATIZED. .. they are all publically funded and or government funded and run. (I"m referring here to elementary and secondary education.. not beyond like college).
EXACTLY!!! The other countries' public schools are teaching at a HIGHER LEVEL than our public schools.
Quote:
You also have to look at each country culturally. For example... why are Asain students such high performers academically and high achievers.. because in their CULTURE it is very much stressed and is vital and important. While we know it's important here, the stress on the importances is far different as is the academic work ethic, if you will.
You have a point on the Asian countries, but what about the European and Eastern European countries who also outperform the U.S.?
Quote:
Again.. the problem with our schools is NOT that they are publically funded and government run PERIOD!!
That's true to a point. The problem is that they are publically funded but have no obligation whatsoever to satisfy the taxpayers. In other words, they know damn well they have a captive audience and so there's much less incentive to perform well - just like any other government-run monopoly. Does the DMV ring a bell?
Quote:
And.. if all schools were privitized you can bet that we would fall way behind the rest of the world when only a handfull would have access to this utopia you consider privitization while the rest are left with ..well pretty much a degraded watered down system.
We have a degraded watered down system now, which has resulted in the dumbing down of America (see: The Other Crisis in American Education).
Harvard political scientist Paul Peterson on school choice: “The research on school choice programs clearly shows that low-income students benefit academically. It’s less clear that the presence of choice in a community motivates public schools to improve.”
So, you want to stick with the option that shows no improvement, even in the face of competition, instead of switching to the option that shows a clear academic benefit? Nice. Instead of being all up in arms that kids might actually get a better education , what you should be worried about is the fact that public schools are HIGHLY resistant to improving their academics, even when faced with extinction through school choice programs.
Quote:
I can agree that the government solution of throwing money on the problem is NOT what is needed to solve the issue, rather curriculum changes and methods should be changed. However, if I'm not mistaken that takes place at the STATE level, NOT the federal level. State curriculum requirements and expectations are different from state to state.
Wow - are you ever missing the point! It's clear to see why you don't understand the problem. You're assuming that achieving state standards is the goal. You couldn't be more wrong. State standards are the BARE MINIMUM acceptable achievement level. EVERY school should be aiming their curriculum WAY BEYOND the state standards level. But, they don't - why not? Good question. We DO know that the end results are the HUGE achievement gaps between the state and national levels we see in this chart: NAEP Researchcenter - NAEP and State Equivalent Percent Table
So the parents in Illinois need to go to their state and lobby for a revised curriculum..as to all those in other states that are not satisfied with the curriculum.
Again, the state standards/curriculum is a bare-minimum acceptable level and should NEVER be the end goal. Inexplicably, many public schools treat them as the end goal and refuse to improve and strengthen their academics beyond that point.
Quote:
AND if the state has a minimum curriculum but on a local level want to exceed that minimum then that should be taken up on a local level.
If that approach were successful, there wouldn't be so many parent/concerned community members groups disgruntled with their local public schools in so many areas of the country.
Because i know people who went to private school who lived on my block while I went to public school.. and we had the SAME curriculum. THAT's WHY!!
EXACTLY!!! The other countries' public schools are teaching at a HIGHER LEVEL than our public schools.
Yeah.. I acknowledged that.. so I say CHANGE HOW OUR PUBLIC and WHAT our public schools are teaching.. not THROW OUT public schooling for crying out loud.. I already said we need to update our curriculum and teaching methods
You have a point on the Asian countries, but what about the European and Eastern European countries who also outperform the U.S.?
They have a different culture as well!! I only used Asian as an EXTREME example.. but the European attitudes and culture are also different.. their priorities within their culture are different.. I know.. I'm married to a European!!
That's true to a point. The problem is that they are publically funded but have no obligation whatsoever to satisfy the taxpayers. In other words, they know damn well they have a captive audience and so there's much less incentive to perform well - just like any other government-run monopoly. Does the DMV ring a bell?
Ah.. HERE is where the problem lies.. you really think that public schools don't have to answer to the taxpayers.. really. Umm our entire GOVERNMENT has to answer to it's people.. AS a matter of fact.. LOOK at what happens when the American Govenerment FAILS to satisfy it's people.. WE PRETTY MUCH CHANGED THE COURSE AND DIRECTION of this country with our votes!!! WE NOW have someone who is bringing us change.. and guess what.. if he fails to satisfy us.. he'll be gone too!!! That happens on a local level as well with our elected officials.
NOT HAPPY with schools in your area.. FIRE THE SCHOOL BOARD members by voting them OUT.. Elect candidates that WANT to change the system.. A good enough candidate is NOT coming forward.. then RUN for school board member and make a difference.
Yes.. we need to do away with tenure so that poor performing teachers CAN be fired.. I can agree to that. AND once you have teachers scared of loosing their jobs they'll start responding to the parents.. because if they parents are unsatisified they KNOW that they can get the old axe!!
WE have become too complacent and excepting the status quo.. I think FINALLY with this last election we kind of proved that HEY.. we CAN make a difference. It has restored my faith in that I as one person CAN make a difference and that COLLECTIVELY we can make a difference.. and that INCLUDES on local levels and with the schools.
We have a degraded watered down system now, which has resulted in the dumbing down of America (see: The Other Crisis in American Education).
Harvard political scientist Paul Peterson on school choice: “The research on school choice programs clearly shows that low-income students benefit academically. It’s less clear that the presence of choice in a community motivates public schools to improve.”
It is watered down NOT because it's public.. it's water down because we have been too complacent as a society and for cultural reasons.. and now we are seeing the results of our complacency and our lack of focus reflected inwhat has occurred in our schools.. and NOW is when we are going to actually affect change to make a transition and LIFT our schools to where they SHOULD be.
So, you want to stick with the option that shows no improvement, even in the face of competition, instead of switching to the option that shows a clear academic benefit? Nice. Instead of being all up in arms that kids might actually get a better education , what you should be worried about is the fact that public schools are HIGHLY resistant to improving their academics, even when faced with extinction through school choice programs.
No.. I want to CHANGE the current system to IMPROVE IT!! IT CAN BE DONE.. if the RIGht CHANGES are implemented. YOur answer of privitization is a highway to diasaster!!! I believe that now that we are realizing what is going on, we can make a difference.. we can improve it. Your answer is to further water down the system by diluting it of any substance whatsoever an abandoning it for a private system that cares ONLY for money and that will benefit ONLY those most able to afford and education while leaving the rest out to hang. Want to see crime rates in this country rise? Because THAT is what will happen when a large part of the population looses access to education.
Wow - are you ever missing the point! It's clear to see why you don't understand the problem. You're assuming that achieving state standards is the goal. You couldn't be more wrong. State standards are the BARE MINIMUM acceptable achievement level. EVERY school should be aiming their curriculum WAY BEYOND the state standards level. But, they don't - why not? Good question. We DO know that the end results are the HUGE achievement gaps between the state and national levels we see in this chart: NAEP Researchcenter - NAEP and State Equivalent Percent Table
Oh my God.. LOL>. do you NOT read my posts.. I SAID That State standards are the MINIMUM!!! I and that EVERY SCHOOL should be aiming to achive ABOVE AND BEYOND That minimum.. I never said MINIMUM was the goal.. I'm saying that perhaps that's how thte local schools have INTERPRETED that NCLB law!!! and PERHAPS in certain districts or areas THAT is the problem. . that they just said "oh I only have to do this and that" and NOT tried to reach higher!!
I even go so far as to say that what is taught to a child in school should not even be where it is left to at home.. that I will teach my child ABOVE and BEYOND that!!!
And if that is the CASE..I go back to what I said afew paragraphs up.. THAT SCHOOLS ARE accountable to the TAXPAYING parents!! FIRe teachers, OUST the underperforming principals, school boards etc!!! If we THINK we can't affect change, then that's what we'll think and that's what we'll happen..
But I think you are wrong.. Public schools DO have accountability as does our gov't have accountability to every citizen of this country.
Who gives a hoot and nanny about the damned studies..USE common sense man.. COMMON SENSE!!! Children from good families, stable home life and with educated paretns excell far more than students of parents that are undereducated, uneducated and broken homes!! PERIOD PERIOD PERIOD!!!
And here we have the crux of the disagreement. I have provided a large amount of factual information, backed up with links, and you have provided... your opinion.
Quote:
Privitizing schools is NOT going to change what goes on AT HOME.. or the ATTITUDE of the children and culture.. PERIOD!!
How do you explain the achievement gains noted by the Harvard political scientist and others?
Quote:
What happens when that comes to be.. and you have the "high" performing schools with only a certain number of slots.
Horror of horrors... you get a ...gasp - meritocracy. India is moving more towards a meritocratic system and away from a caste system. The 'elites' can't preserve their formerly untouchable status - they have to earn it. The lower classes benefit. In India, a shift to meritocracy uproots old elites - International Herald Tribune
Quote:
Make the proper changes and adjustments to the curriculum and methods of teaching IN PUBLIC schools and you'll see a difference...
You do that. See how far you get with that. In the meantime, stop sentencing others to a subpar education.
Quote:
BUT.. there will still be children underperforming because they are NOT getting the support they need from home.. so those children will be left behind or get to the finish line slower.. and your child, with the proper support and new curriculum.. will move forward.
This part of your post is a very thinly disguised endorsement of dumbing everyone down to the majority level, which by definition would have to be below average, to equalize outcomes. You seem not to be able to understand that this VERY SAME line of thinking is what has been dumbing down Americans for the last several decades (AGAIN - see: The Other Crisis in American Education).
Quote:
AND .. BTW.. as was already mentioned .. THIS IS NOT A NATIONAL ISSUE... many schools and district parents are satisfied with their school curriculums...
Then where's the problem? The satisfied parents can stay in their public schools. The dissatisfied parents can move their children to a school that will meet their academic needs. Everyone wins.
"One can't understand southern Christianity and the disdain for public education without recognizing the role of racism."
People always complain about education without knowing much of the factual background:
.
*Our schools are bad because our jobs are going overseas.
Not true. Our jobs are overseas because we abolished our tariffs in 1973 and we just can't compete with 16 cent per hour labor on a pricing basis.
*We are behind other countries:
True, some; mostly Scandanavian ones . But many of the countries we are suposedly 'losing" to (e.g. India and China) do not educate the masses like we try here. Also, while our students do lag test wise to their elites, after 4 years ol a typical US college, our students are the BEST in the world. Which is why they send theirs here.
* Leave No Child" was designed to make public schools more accountable.
This is BS. It is at best a huge unfunded mandate designed to wreck the public educational syatem. At worst, it was designed as payoff to the racists who comprise much of the modern GOP (hint: The were once called "Dixiecrats" in the Democratic Party.)
THAT has nothing to do whatsoever with the fact that the school is private vs public... because guess what.. the SAME curriculum is TAUGHT in private as is taught in PUBLIC!!
ONCE AGAIN, you paint with a very broad brush.
I can assure you - no, GUARANTEE YOU, there are private schools that do NOT teach the same curriculum as in Public schools. Andre Agazzi Academy in Las Vegas is one - AND, most of the students are from economically disadvantaged families - unlike what you try to portray TM.
originally posted by informedconsent Where on earth would you get that idea?
because i know people who went to private school who lived on my block while i went to public school.. And we had the same curriculum. That's why!!
So, let me get this straight. You're basing your argument that public and private schools teach the same curriculum on the experience of people who live on one residential block, and extrapolating that to the rest of the country?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Instead of being all up in arms that kids might actually get a better education 
, what you should be worried about is the fact that public schools are HIGHLY resistant to improving their academics, even when faced with extinction through school choice programs.
I already said we need to update our curriculum and teaching methods
