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Now we get to the heart of the matter! So there's "good" torture, and then there's "bad" torture. If you torture someone but you think you have a really good reason, that's "good" torture. If you just pick people randomly and torture them, well that's "bad" torture. Or if you torture them just so the torture stuff won't go to waste: also "bad".
So what this means is that most of the torture in modern times has been pretty doggone good!
Khmer Rouge defendant says US helped rise to power (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090406/ap_on_re_as/as_cambodia_genocide_trial - broken link)
The 3,000+ people that were murdered on 9/11 would probably think it was "good torture" if it led to that attack being stopped.
You think these plots that are foiled almost on a daily basis are solely done with cooperation with those involved????
The 3,000+ people that were murdered on 9/11 would probably think it was "good torture" if it led to that attack being stopped.
You think these plots that are foiled almost on a daily basis are solely done with cooperation with those involved????
I don't think torture or trashing the bill of rights has resulted in a daily catch of terrorists, or daily foiling of plots or any such silliness. The Europeans are doing a better job, and that's because they have followed the lessons of peacetime counterterrorism of many past years: treat terrorists as the criminals they are, let the police catch them, and give the police all the money and support that requires. Use troops only as requested by the police. No one has ever effectively fought a military war against terrorists and no one ever will. The intent of the last Administration was not to fight terrorism, but to expand government size and power and those changes are always permanant. I also think that the people who started two wars that are largely irrelevant to 911 have already killedmorethan1000moreAmericans than the 911 attacks, as well as 100's of thousands of innocent civilians.
You're living in a fantasy world if you think plots are foiled on a daily basis let alone by using torture.
That's just bizzare that you would say such a thing.
No, what's bizarre is that you know damn well there are elements out there plotting against this country, yet all you and your ilk care about is how we MAY treat conspirators to these actions. The faux outrage you show is laughable and hypocritical as well. I don't pretend to think that torture is the best option, but I do think it's one that should be used at certain times. You people cry about our supposed torture of people, yet don't say a peep when our troops/citizens are brutally murdered and tortured.
But you can live in your fantasy world where everyone gets along and when we need information from people who hate our guts, we ask them politely and they respond accordingly.
No, what's bizarre is that you know damn well there are elements out there plotting against this country, yet all you and your ilk care about is how we MAY treat conspirators to these actions. The faux outrage you show is laughable and hypocritical as well. I don't pretend to think that torture is the best option, but I do think it's one that should be used at certain times. You people cry about our supposed torture of people, yet don't say a peep when our troops/citizens are brutally murdered and tortured.
But you can live in your fantasy world where everyone gets along and when we need information from people who hate our guts, we ask them politely and they respond accordingly.
fact free again...paranoids never are able to back up their phobias
I don't think torture or trashing the bill of rights has resulted in a daily catch of terrorists, or daily foiling of plots or any such silliness. The Europeans are doing a better job, and that's because they have followed the lessons of peacetime counterterrorism of many past years: treat terrorists as the criminals they are, let the police catch them, and give the police all the money and support that requires. Use troops only as requested by the police. No one has ever effectively fought a military war against terrorists and no one ever will. The intent of the last Administration was not to fight terrorism, but to expand government size and power and those changes are always permanant. I also think that the people who started two wars that are largely irrelevant to 911 have already killedmorethan1000moreAmericans than the 911 attacks, as well as 100's of thousands of innocent civilians.
You may be shocked, but I actually agree with most of what you said. The problem is HOW to catch them. What methods should be used? These aren't thugs robbing a liquor store, these are people hell-bent on bringing this country to its knees, therefore, a larger power is needed that has greater resources (the military). I'm not saying torture is the perfect instrument in gaining intelligence, in fact, I would gather the information is nothing but what the people want to hear. I just don't think it's something that should be totally done away with.
The European police forces have a lot more leeway to use whatever means they need than the American police forces. They can get away with more than what our guys can. This isn't necessarily a good thing, but perhaps it helps them getting intelligence that is needed. We rely on lawyers and the courts way to often. While this may be good when time isn't of the essence, it's detrimental when time is of the essence.
The Afghan war is quite relevant to 9/11. I agree with you that the Iraq war isn't and is something that should never have been initiated.
You may be shocked, but I actually agree with most of what you said. The problem is HOW to catch them. What methods should be used? These aren't thugs robbing a liquor store, these are people hell-bent on bringing this country to its knees, therefore, a larger power is needed that has greater resources (the military). I'm not saying torture is the perfect instrument in gaining intelligence, in fact, I would gather the information is nothing but what the people want to hear. I just don't think it's something that should be totally done away with.
The European police forces have a lot more leeway to use whatever means they need than the American police forces. They can get away with more than what our guys can. This isn't necessarily a good thing, but perhaps it helps them getting intelligence that is needed. We rely on lawyers and the courts way to often. While this may be good when time isn't of the essence, it's detrimental when time is of the essence.
The Afghan war is quite relevant to 9/11. I agree with you that the Iraq war isn't and is something that should never have been initiated.
I agree with all you say here except the part about them wanting to bring us to our knees. I think the main thing they want is no American Military presence in the Middle East which leads inevitably to the issue of Israel and Palestine. I do feel the Afghani war got off track after a good beginning, but Iraq was obviously the cause of that. The only way we'll ever change the Afghani people is by showing them something better than what they see within the Arab culture. We had an opportunity right after their war with the Soviets, and again after our invasion but prior to the Iraq war. But so far all they have seen from the non-Arab world is military attack and empty promises.
Interpol used a focus on tracking the money, and that always leads to the crooks. Terrorists are always crooks in one way or another, whether its counterfeiting, drug trafficking, arms trade or whatever, in order to finance their activities. Some of the money American Big Business channels into the Arab countries by keeping our old gas burners on the roads goes to the terrorists, but I think the majority still goes to the war on Israel. American law enforcement uses the same techniques against organized crime. While we appear less effective against the drug traffickers, we've shown we can be as effective as we want to be when we choose. Yes they don't have to worry about things like our rules about things like illegal search and seizure, but they don't have things like the RICO Act either, so I don't think our Constitution puts us at any great handicap.
The 3,000+ people that were murdered on 9/11 would probably think it was "good torture" if it led to that attack being stopped.
You think these plots that are foiled almost on a daily basis are solely done with cooperation with those involved????
I don't think there's a shred of solid evidence that any of the abuses at Gitmo did anything but provide orgasms for Cheney. What is worse is that the potential prosecution of these guys has now been precluded by the incompetence of the Republican Administration. We'll be letting some really bad people go free so the Dick Cheney can get sick sexual gratification.
Location: I currently exist only in a state of mind. one too complex for geographic location.
4,196 posts, read 5,848,016 times
Reputation: 670
um, do you know a single thing, or just what you see on 24? perhaps you might want to take the leap back into reality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rlchurch
I don't think there's a shred of solid evidence that any of the abuses at Gitmo did anything but provide orgasms for Cheney. What is worse is that the potential prosecution of these guys has now been precluded by the incompetence of the Republican Administration. We'll be letting some really bad people go free so the Dick Cheney can get sick sexual gratification.
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