Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
First of all, it's not minorities. It's minority (blacks) and also a majority (females, 53%). The only group penalized by Affirmative Action is a minority (white males). Your argument held water 40 years ago. But today I have to ask you, How has white male bigotry caused these black firefighters to not pass the identical test the white firefighters were able to pass?
I don't need a history book to tell me a group of blacks didn't work as hard as a group of whites did. I need only look at the results of the test to see who is best qualified for the Lt. and Cpt. positions.
Did past wrongs, that no one living today had anything to do with, prevent these blacks from studying as hard as the whites did? Or did the blacks just go with the flow because they realized only blacks get promoted, so why bother?
You're not asserting that blacks are unable to learn as well as whites are you? See, I would find that offensive were you to say that, and since we (I assume) agree that that is not the case, the blacks must not have worked as hard as the whites.
In the future, please try to correct your racist tendencies. White males are people too.
I love this topic...it's pathetic but hilarious at the same time!
Since the beginning of time white males have ruled.....not giving a damn about people of color or women....and when the the shoe even STARTS sliding onto the other foot....
OH the whining, wailing, pants wetting crying simpering tantrums that spring forth!
AND does it give them any insight or perspective into the problems those other groups faced? OH NO...it's all about them...an attitude that will never change....
Meanwhile all the people who have sufferd discrimination since time began....DON'T GIVE A WHOOP!
I love this topic...it's pathetic but hilarious at the same time!
Since the beginning of time white males have ruled.....not giving a damn about people of color or women....and when the the shoe even STARTS sliding onto the other foot....
OH the whining, wailing, pants wetting crying simpering tantrums that spring forth!
AND does it give them any insight or perspective into the problems those other groups faced? OH NO...it's all about them...an attitude that will never change....
Meanwhile all the people who have sufferd discrimination since time began....DON'T GIVE A WHOOP!
And test scores should mean nothing ? They should promote based on race alone ?
Why is it that every time any issue arises that involves a disparity in something involving more than one race there is a knee-jerk application of the race card? A group of firemen take a test but some do better than others. What the h3ll does their race have to do with anything? It is nothing more than a matter of some fireman are more knowledgeable and qualified than others. It would seem that the only way to have such a test be totally impartial is to put all the men in a room with no lights on (only small personal lights that illuminate only the test) and give the test using numerical identifiers instead of names. Then when the tests are scored the results will be completely impartial. It is highly likely that the results will be exactly the same as those produced by more conventional methods and there will be no racial component to skew the outcome. Would anyone be satisfied with that kind of impartiality? I think not; there will still be those who cry foul and want not a level playing field but one that favors some minority class or another.
First of all, it's not minorities. It's minority (blacks) and also a majority (females, 53%). The only group penalized by Affirmative Action is a minority (white males). Your argument held water 40 years ago. But today I have to ask you, How has white male bigotry caused these black firefighters to not pass the identical test the white firefighters were able to pass?
I don't need a history book to tell me a group of blacks didn't work as hard as a group of whites did. I need only look at the results of the test to see who is best qualified for the Lt. and Cpt. positions.
Did past wrongs, that no one living today had anything to do with, prevent these blacks from studying as hard as the whites did? Or did the blacks just go with the flow because they realized only blacks get promoted, so why bother?
You're not asserting that blacks are unable to learn as well as whites are you? See, I would find that offensive were you to say that, and since we (I assume) agree that that is not the case, the blacks must not have worked as hard as the whites.
In the future, please try to correct your racist tendencies. White males are people too.
Once again, American History book, make sure you read it this time. It answers all the questions you have.
1. Find out what Affirmative action is, and why it is.
2. As you develop mentally, you will realize, that when someone does something bad, the system put in place to prevent them from doing so again, often negatively impacts someone who was playing by the rules all along. (ex. go to an airport, you still have to go through all the new security checkpoints even though you played by the rules all along).
3. Learn to understand "Time". Learn the relationship between the past and present. (ex. My great grandfather bought land in 1915. He passed it down to my grandfather, who passed it to my father, who passed it to me. I in no way did anything to earn this land, but due to my great grandfather purchasing it in 1915 i own it today in 2009.)
And test scores should mean nothing ? They should promote based on race alone ?
Well the test is the crux of the case. The City used a particular test on which white males typically outscored other demographic groups. Apparently there are two other commonly used tests of this type. Tests are created by and administered by independent testing services. One of the other tests also showed a strong racial bias and one did not. The questions the court was looking at were things like
"Is a City obliged to use a test without racial bias?" the majority felt the answer should be "yes"
"If the test were changed to a test without racial bias, were the people who failed the first time automatically entitled to a "do-over" with the new test?" The majority felt the answer should be "no" as there is no inherent right to promotion, hence no inherent right to a do-over.
The case revolves around these types of questions. The test isn't some kind of infallible absolute standard determining superiority or inferiority of a candidate.
In the 1970's there was a wave of these types of legal cases involving tests for professional licensure, and things like that. Courts have always ruled that if a test is going to be used it should not have a racial or cultural bias.
For what it's worth, the argument of the Obama DOJ was the same as the city's on all points except the point about the selection of the test, where the city did not consider lack of a racial bias when picking the test they were going to use.
Well the test is the crux of the case. The City used a particular test on which white males typically outscored other demographic groups. Apparently there are two other commonly used tests of this type. Tests are created by and administered by independent testing services. One of the other tests also showed a strong racial bias and one did not. The questions the court was looking at were things like
"Is a City obliged to use a test without racial bias?" the majority felt the answer should be "yes"
"If the test were changed to a test without racial bias, were the people who failed the first time automatically entitled to a "do-over" with the new test?" The majority felt the answer should be "no" as there is no inherent right to promotion, hence no inherent right to a do-over.
The case revolves around these types of questions. The test isn't some kind of infallible absolute standard determining superiority or inferiority of a candidate.
In the 1970's there was a wave of these types of legal cases involving tests for professional licensure, and things like that. Courts have always ruled that if a test is going to be used it should not have a racial or cultural bias.
For what it's worth, the argument of the Obama DOJ was the same as the city's on all points except the point about the selection of the test, where the city did not consider lack of a racial bias when picking the test they were going to use.
How in the heck can a Firefighter test be biased for "white" firefighers ?
A fire is a fire..a victim is a victim.
"Of the 15 top scorers 14 were white and one was Hispanic. None of the 19 African-American firefighters who took the test qualified for promotion, the city said.
Interpreting the results, the city said that no minorities would have been eligible for lieutenant, and two Hispanics would have been eligible for captain. After a racially charged debate, the city threw out the test results because no blacks could be promoted."
Dare I get my hopes up that in the future I'll be able to get ahead by working and studying harder than the blacks and females I compete with in the work place? Will it truly be possible for me to at last be eligible for promotion based on my performance and ability alone and treated as a true equal in corporate America?
I always find it interesting that people feel justified in demanding racial diversity, at the expense of quality and standards of excellence, for potentially life and death issues like firemen, police and military, but on the basketball courts, and football fields, they would never dream of lowering the quality of their favorite sports team, just so Asians, Hispanics, and women were all equally represented in the NBA, NFL, or USC sports teams.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
