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I'm saying bringing a gun in our hospitals is against the law, so a person who brings a firearm into our hospitals is breaking thelaw, and therefor not a law abiding citizen and using a firearm while committing a crimeis one of the conditions under which police in my State may use deadly force.
I think you have a very poor understanding of the law.
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Originally Posted by fatchance2005
It's not a question of what I believe, it is the law
Can you cite the law you're referring to, please? Jurisdiction and statute, please. You're claiming something that is extraordinarily unlikely, so I'd like to see the proof.
I think you have a very poor understanding of the law.
Can you cite the law you're referring to, please? Jurisdiction and statute, please. You're claiming something that is extraordinarily unlikely, so I'd like to see the proof.
Since it is you asking My Friend, I will do the best I can. I know you are sincere and not just trying to jerk me around. Please understand I'm not an attorney, but I've lived in Missouri most of my life and I'm a gun owner so I know what I need to know. I'm sure you can see there's more than one issue, like the law against bringing guns in hospitals, the effect of possessing a gun while committing a crime, and the use of deadly force.
I'll put the Statute numbers on here in a second, but you'll notice there are few restrictions at the State level. Missouri is one of 48 States that have language in their Constitution similar to the Second Amendment. Also please note that Counties and Municipalities are given the power to create additional laws. Missouri has 116 Counties, and a lot of municipalities. Kansas City straddles the border with Kansas, so Kansas law will apply in some cases. I don't know much about it except its stricter. The Missouri part of Kansas City is in Jackson County. The Kansas side is in Wyandotte and Johnson county. In addition the Metro area includes besides KC, Independence, Lees Summitt, Grandview, Raytown and North KC, and on the Kansas side, Lenexa, Overland Park, Shawnee Mission, Olathe and Leawood. I think that's all of them. Also, please note that unlawful possession is a Class C Felony. I won't try to go through them all, just to show you the foundation of the statement I made.
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Peaceable Journey and RV Law
Missouri has a 'peaceable journey' under Missouri Statutes 571.030 which law says it's not illegal to carry the weapon in a passenger compartment of a vehicle as long as (1) concealable firearm is otherwise lawfully possessed, (2) person is 21 or older, or (3) person is in his dwelling unit (e.g. RV) or upon premises over which the person has possession/authority/control, or is traveling in a continuous journey peaceably through this state. Same applies (it's not a crime) when person is 21 and possesses an exposed firearm for the lawful pursuit of game.
Open Carry
Missouri does allow open carry of firearms for those age 21 or older. However, city, county, and municipalities are allowed to pass local laws and ordinances restricting this. It is advisable to check local laws and ordinances before openly carrying a firearm within Missouri.
Concealed Carry
Missouri Statute 571.070 (8/28/2007) says that unlawful possession of a concealable firearm is a class C felony. Missouri Statute 571.121 (8/28/2007) says (a) you have to carry permit with you when you carry the concealed weapon and if you don't have it with you, it's not a crime, but you can be fined up to $35, and (b) director of revenue issues a driver's license that reflects that you have a concealed carry permit (and they cannot be held responsible for what you do.)
Missouri's gun ownership Statue has a "castle" provision, so if you use a gun defending your home or business it isn't a crime. The original CCW law did not address the issue, but revised Statute is in the Legislature that will add "Stand Your Ground" language so that a CCW can be used for self defense or the defense of others.
Missouri gun law permits the use of deadlyforce as a first option for allgunowners, not just police. The police departments I am familiar with have some additional restrictions that ordinary citizens don't have, like they are supposed to give a warning where circumstances permit (as I had mentioned) and they are not supposed to shoot at a fleeing person.
This is from the Brady Bill Site. (They don't Like Missouri very much).
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SHOOT FIRST
Is deadly force allowed to be a first resort in public? Yes Missouri - The state does allow the use of deadly force as a first resort in public. This dangerous law permits the average citizen to bypass our entire justice system by permitting him or her to assume the role of police officer, prosecutor, judge, and executioner.
Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence (http://www.stategunlaws.org/viewstate.php?st=MO - broken link)
Finally, the issue of whether or not bringing a gun into a hospital is lawfulpossession under Missouri Statute 571.070
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Concealed firearms cannot be carried in or on posted private property and the following public places:
Police stations without consent, correctional facilities, prisons and jails.
Courthouses.
Polling places on election day.
Governmental meetings and portions of public buildings that prohibit carrying firearms by ordinance or regulation.
Bars and lounges, or restaurants that derive less than 50 percent of income from the sale of food.
Secure areas of airports or any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law.
College or universities or any facilities owned by colleges or universities.
Elementary or secondary schools without the permission of school officials or any child care facility without the permission of the manager.
Riverboat gambling facilities.
Buses or bus stations.
Gated areas of amusement parks.
Churches or other areas of worship without consent.
Sports arenas or stadiums with a capacity of five thousand or more.
Hospitals accessible by the public.
Law enforcement officers, corrections officers, probation and parole officers, some judges; process servers and marshals and members of the armed forces or the national guard while performing their official duties are exempt from this prohibition.
It is unlawful to exhibit, in the presence of one or more persons, any weapon readily capable of lethal use in an angry or threatening manner.
Ok, I appreciate the research you did. People on the opposing side from me in virtually every gun related debate very, very rarely ever actually look stuff up. Kudos to you.
But that's not what I was talking about...
I guess I should have been more clear, but the particular tangent seemed contiguous in my head as I was typing, so I wasn't very specific. I'm looking for the law that says that someone can be (legally) shot for merely carrying a firearm in a restricted area (hospital).
I have no doubt that they're prohibited in hospitals - I never once contested that. I'm also familiar with the carry laws that most states adhere to, generally speaking, as well as the castle doctrine. What I wanted to see was where it's written that a private security guard can shoot you dead just because they see the butt of a gun sticking out of your waistband. That is what I'm contesting.
Also, I meant to point it out in my previous post, but missed it when editing your quotes, whoever is patrolling your hospital is probably not a Federal LEO, as you stated. It's well outside the feds jurisdiction to be providing security for a hospital, unless you work at a VA hospital or other federal facility. And maybe you do - it might explain why you had people coming in and shooting the place up... PTSD anyone?
Ok, I appreciate the research you did. People on the opposing side from me in virtually every gun related debate very, very rarely ever actually look stuff up. Kudos to you.
But that's not what I was talking about...
I guess I should have been more clear, but the particular tangent seemed contiguous in my head as I was typing, so I wasn't very specific. I'm looking for the law that says that someone can be (legally) shot for merely carrying a firearm in a restricted area (hospital).
I have no doubt that they're prohibited in hospitals - I never once contested that. I'm also familiar with the carry laws that most states adhere to, generally speaking, as well as the castle doctrine. What I wanted to see was where it's written that a private security guard can shoot you dead just because they see the butt of a gun sticking out of your waistband. That is what I'm contesting.
Also, I meant to point it out in my previous post, but missed it when editing your quotes, whoever is patrolling your hospital is probably not a Federal LEO, as you stated. It's well outside the feds jurisdiction to be providing security for a hospital, unless you work at a VA hospital or other federal facility. And maybe you do - it might explain why you had people coming in and shooting the place up... PTSD anyone?
I haven't said "a private security guard can shoot you dead just because they see the butt of a gun sticking out of your waistband". So if that is what you're contesting we're both wasting our time. There isn't a single law that says "someone can be (legally) shot for merely carrying a firearm in a restricted area (hospital)." Its the cumulative effect of felony possession+deady force is legal as a 1st option. Like I said, they are supposed to warn, etc if the situation permits. The key thing isn't that it's a hospital, but that it's not lawful use. Believe me they waste people regularly here for crimes committed while in possession of a gun. KCK has the reputation of being "trigger happy", or "shoot first and ask questions later".
I have said that bringing a gun into a hospital (here) is not lawful use, and that unlawful use is a Class C Felony. So we're down to just the issue of deadly force.
I've shown you the Missouri law that permits use of deadly force as a first option by anyone, if it is in self defense, or defense of a home or business. So now we're down to the issue of whether that law means everybody except cops and private security officers. I've also said more than once that law enforcement is required to issue a warning if circumstances permit, not just open fire. I think that's Federal Law.
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whoever is patrolling your hospital is probably not a Federal LEO, as you stated. It's well outside the feds jurisdiction to be providing security for a hospital, unless you work at a VA hospital or other federal facility. And maybe you do - it might explain why you had people coming in and shooting the place up... PTSD anyone?
I have said in previous posts that in the hospitals here the security may be private security, or Metro Police, or County Mounties, or Federal Police.
They don't like us to talk about it but yes I do work at a federal facility, and yes our security are Federal Law Enforcement. However, there have been no shootings here ever, so you really can't count PTSD is a factor.
In the facilities where the shootings occured at one place the security was a mix of KCK police and Kansas State Troopers. It's Kansas University Medical Center, a State facility. The other one is the County hospital. They have Jackson County Highway Patrol and Kansas City Missouri police. I'm not aware of any shootings at the private hospitals, but the State Law applies to all of them. I think in at least some cases firearm use is optional for the prvate security forces and they may just call 911. One place I worked with private security if they were armed it was their own gun. The career law enforcement are much better trained.
We haven't had any incidents anywhere since the State Law was made. Who can say if it has any effect. The signs that say "No Firearms Allowed" (and explosives, incindiary devices, etc) also say the use of deadly force is authorized. These people usually aren't crazy or stupid, I think, but just a little unhinged by difficult circumstances. Hospital people do get training on how to deal with them. Who knows how many are now dealt with that way? Before, even when they shot people they ended up dead too.
I hope this clarifies my comments and helps dispel any misunderstandings. It has been a pretty good talk in most ways, compared to most we get on this subject, as you said.
I'm not worried about them. The people who carry guns legally in our hospitals are trained law enforcement and military professionals on duty. I'm glad other people can't bring in guns. If they want to run around with them somewhere else that's OK with me, just so they behave themselves.
Trained you say? I was POST (Police Officers Standards of Training) certified several years back in one of the top 5 training schools in the country at the time. Do you want to know what "trained" means in how it relates to that of a intro to guns class and a CCW permit class (usually those who are new to guns will take both to cover all the areas before they get the CCW)?
Well, it has been a while, but POST required something around 5-8 hours lecture and around 10 hours hands on training. That is, the classes covered guns in general, make, model, ammunition, proper handling, use of force, legalities, environment effect factors and like topics. The hands on consisted of physical shooting from different positions and in different situational use such as rapid fire, hip shooting, ambidextrous shooting, night shooting and so forth.
Keep in mind that part of that training time was also used for topics such as police gear, legalities, and weapons not related to guns specifically.
Depending on state, CCW classes and gun related courses will cover for the most part the same exact topics and log fairly close to the same amount of time (often these classes are taught by officers themselves in their part time). Your "professionals" are often no more skilled in the weapons they use than the average CCW holder who visits the range regularly.
You can take comfort in them being "professional" but the fact of the matter is, they aren't more skilled than that of a responsible CCW holder.
Not in the least, and when they are found to be should be removed from duty and banished from ever serving in any LE capacity again.
THe difference is, however that any and all LEOs should have had enough firearms, psychological, and situational training to be able to keep a cool head. Very few CCW holders have had anything beyond the minimal training required by law.
By the time they are found to be deficient there could easily be an unnecessary loss of innocent life.
LOL I have not shot against any that were better or more accurate than I am... Thats not to say that there are not any that can I just have not met any yet. That is a sad and telling thing. How well trained are local law enforcement? Chain saw attacker had BAC of 0.495 ("Suicide by cop")
This happened about 40 miles from where I live. What the article doesn't include. There were 5 cops and 1 state trooper. The original story which I can't find stated that over 60 rounds were fired. Surrounding homes were peppered with 9mm rounds. The furthest any cop was from the man was perhaps 5 meters........ I don't know that I can miss at 5 meters unless I actually tried to miss.
My point being is that many ccw holders are advid marksman. We actually put some serious time in at the range. More time than many cops.
Its nothing for me to shoot 300-500 rounds in a given month. I would hazard that many cops don't do that in a year.
Seriously, dude, are you so in love with your gun that you think environmental protection should take second place to your desire to shoot in national parks?
In what oddly conflated way does "environmental protection" have to do with our Constitutional right to carry arms? The deposition of lead in the ground if someone trys to molest you or your family or your wife?
I've always felt that if you don't want to carry arms, please don't. If you do, and can read the Constitution and aren't afraid of your fellow law-abiding citizenry's ability to resist governmental tyranny or the unlawful intents of the criminal element in our population (even in a National Park, where property crime, even rape, is not uncommon), then how on earth does a Nat. Park differ from a walk in the woods, say, in the NW Cascades?
Also, note that in all Nat. Parks in Alaska, where bears, or more problematically, cow moose, present a realthreat, you CAN carry your .454 Casull Magnum. Common-sensibilities expressed by Alaskans, as usual....
Also, in those famous scense of "combat salmon fishing" along Alaska's famous salmon streams, you'll note, if astute, that all fisher-people there are packing such things as a Ruger Alaskan .454 Mag snubbie, and yet, oddly, there's NEVER been an outburst of mad killing rage there. Who would be stupid enough vto do so, realizing their fate 2.35 seconds later? Then, the vastly more realist-minded crowd that you'll ever find at Yellowstone or NY City, would then just toss the offending genetically-behaviorally-errant carcass, perhaps stipped of clothing, into teh nearby shrubbery for the local previously snoozing Urushorribilus to "consume".
The public's personal dislike or unproven phobias or fear or inexperience with firearms should in no way be overlaid on my proven abilities and lack of fear of an inanimate object/tool that I can and will use simply to effectively protect myself &/or family. Nothing more. 911 doesn't work in Yellowstone, BTW. "Help! Help", ditto.
Last edited by rifleman; 05-03-2009 at 10:40 AM..
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Pause for amomment and think it through.
