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My only concern is that Spain lost 2.2 jobs for every "green" job they created. Now we probably could criticise how they made the approach but if we replicate the approach I would assume that the result would be the same.
I see going green as a way to get off "the system" as much as possible and get away from the increasing taxes.
Well water, septic, solar & wind for electricity. Still owe the man for property taxes though so one can never totally divorce the system. It's expensive though (solar&wind) but if you don't plan to move then you can start out small and add on to your system.
To me that is "going green" but I don't think the government nor corporations would like my proposal because it would get me more away from the system than sucked into the system.
My only concern is that Spain lost 2.2 jobs for every "green" job they created. Now we probably could criticise how they made the approach but if we replicate the approach I would assume that the result would be the same.
There are problems with that study.
Here's a couple.
Quote:
According to the United Nations, official estimates are 188,000, yet Calzada only lists green jobs 50,000 jobs and does not explain why he uses those dramatically different numbers.
...
The study works from the assumption that public spending crowds out private spending. Most economist believe, and history has proven that public spending increases demand for resources, not decrease it.
If green measures were economically viable, we wouldn't have to subsidize them. We would all have solar panels on our houses, windmills in our back yards and electric cars. Some of the green ideas appeal to me because I'm tired of paying money to DTE energy and paying for gasoline. But I don't see them as being practiacal today without lots of government subsidies and that just means I'll pay for them with higher taxes.
That is only due to the high cost of R&D, whereas traditional options are already paid down, but to honor the request of the OP, here is my answer:
-compact flourescent lightbulbs use less energy and last much longer. They save me money on two fronts.
-my Honda Civic gets about 35mpg, and I drive about 25k per year, so that is quite a bit of savings over a less efficient car.
-I bought the civic used (with only 43k miles). Some would argue that this is green because I "recycled a car". I think that may be BS, but it is a fact that I saved a lot of money by buying used.
-I put in an energy efficient heat pump this year. If I did not need to replace my system anyway, then it would not be a benefit, but since mine was pretty much dead (major repairs for the last three years), I bought an efficient system. My power bill is down on average about a dollar a day, so it will pay for itself over time (it was not much more expensive than other systems, and because it is powerful enough, it keeps my house much more comfy too.
-Southern facing windows on my sunroom. Sun is high in the summer, and we pull the shades, so it does not get too hot. Sun is low in the winter, shines right in, and keeps it really comfy with no heat in the winter. And I enjoy the room a lot.
-I grow a garden, but it is more for the hobby. I'm not sure how much I save with it, probably some, but more-so I enjoy the hobby and love the fresh veggies (cause I ain't about to pay $4/lb for organic tomatoes from whole foods)
I'm not a green freak, but I do look for ways that I can "do the right thing". (yes, I realize that is a debated subject) and save money at the same time. I am not wealthy enough to pay huge bucks to have the first hybrid on my street, or to be the guy with the solar roof, but I'm glad that the "wacko's" out there are doing it, because if enough of them do, then the cost will come down, and maybe one day I can afford to put panels on my roof, cutting my power bill even more.
I see going green as a way to get off "the system" as much as possible and get away from the increasing taxes.
Taxes have gone down.
If you are anticipating the 2001 tax cuts expiring - that is valid, though I have read that they would be extended for the middle class.
We might get closer to Clinton era tax levels (but still lower)
Horrible times, those.
Quote:
Well water, septic, solar & wind for electricity. Still owe the man for property taxes though so one can never totally divorce the system. It's expensive though (solar&wind) but if you don't plan to move then you can start out small and add on to your system.
To me that is "going green" but I don't think the government nor corporations would like my proposal because it would get me more away from the system than sucked into the system.
I like your proposal, and I don't think anyone who truly is worried about limited resources (and the planet in general) will argue against it. Whatever your reasons (stick it to the man!), I applaud your post.
Wow, we have a lot of people buying into the media's doomsday scenario. There were past temperature changes larger than one degree during the ice-age, long before we had cars and various other machines to contribute to the warming. I seriously doubt that humans are contributing much to the warming if it isn't just a temperature cycle like the many cycles we had before in history.
I think you are missing an important point. Regardless of the whole global warming thing, we are still consuming our resources much more quickly than we can replace them, the way we live today cannot go on indefinitely. That is completely irrefutable. I would agree with others that going green is an investment in our future. It might not be your future personally, but for us to survive as a species, we need to change how we treat our environment.
You can also argue that being a good steward to the environment is the correct thing to do, morally. If you can afford it, why not? It certainly isn't going to hurt anything. Some "green" things do save on electricity. (And in more ways than just more energy efficient appliances. For instance, green home design emphasizes natural light, so you use all light bulbs less, twisty or no!) In some ways you save money, in others you don't. Changing an energy system does create jobs- at least for a while. But I don't think you can have a discussion about the benefits of going green and completely ignore the long term implications of over-consumption.
I think you are missing an important point. Regardless of the whole global warming thing, we are still consuming our resources much more quickly than we can replace them, the way we live today cannot go on indefinitely. That is completely irrefutable. I would agree with others that going green is an investment in our future. It might not be your future personally, but for us to survive as a species, we need to change how we treat our environment.
You can also argue that being a good steward to the environment is the correct thing to do, morally. If you can afford it, why not? It certainly isn't going to hurt anything. Some "green" things do save on electricity. (And in more ways than just more energy efficient appliances. For instance, green home design emphasizes natural light, so you use all light bulbs less, twisty or no!) In some ways you save money, in others you don't. Changing an energy system does create jobs- at least for a while. But I don't think you can have a discussion about the benefits of going green and completely ignore the long term implications of over-consumption.
I completely agree. We should be focused on reducing consumption of our resources even if we don't believe in global warming. We consume much more resources per person these days than we did just 20 years ago. If we continue to consume resources at the same rate we are now then it will devastate our economy in the long run.
I see going green as a way to get off "the system" as much as possible and get away from the increasing taxes.
Well water, septic, solar & wind for electricity. Still owe the man for property taxes though so one can never totally divorce the system. It's expensive though (solar&wind) but if you don't plan to move then you can start out small and add on to your system.
To me that is "going green" but I don't think the government nor corporations would like my proposal because it would get me more away from the system than sucked into the system.
I'll play devil's advocate since the majority of the posters are on the side of the whole "green" movement.
States like New Hampshire consist of homes that mostly use well water and septic tanks and yet their property tax is the 2nd highest in the nation. A 500k home in Bedford, NH has a property tax of 10k/year.
The point I am trying to make is that the more "green" we become and the less we consume, the higher the prices for goods and services will get per unit of consumption. Because I guarantee that corporations are not going to let "green" products ruin their profits. Once you flush out all of the non-green products from the market place, that is when they commence taxing the sun. I would consider solar panels if you could disconnect from your electric company but notice they will never allow you to do this...
I think you are missing an important point. Regardless of the whole global warming thing, we are still consuming our resources much more quickly than we can replace them, the way we live today cannot go on indefinitely. That is completely irrefutable. I would agree with others that going green is an investment in our future. It might not be your future personally, but for us to survive as a species, we need to change how we treat our environment.
This is true but we are not even close to running out of oil yet. There are some places in the world where the oil is saturating the earth so much it is actually detrimental to the environment if we don't collect it. I think this is a similar argument that I learned in hunting class. There are certain animals that overpopulate to the extent that it destroys the ecosystem and if you let "nature" run its course there would be grave consequences. While humans are in fact at the top of the food chain, we have nobody to remove us except for ourselves. The only thing that keeps us from overpopulating are wars which we are reducing as the years go by and also reducing the casualties which further damages the balance of the ecosystem. So many poor people keep replicating which makes it more difficult to lower our consumption. If we could limit and control the human population, this would be a more efficient way to maintain our ecosystem than trying to invent green products that marginally impact the earth especially when other nations like China are building a coal powered plant every week.
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Originally Posted by Jillaceae
You can also argue that being a good steward to the environment is the correct thing to do, morally. If you can afford it, why not? It certainly isn't going to hurt anything. Some "green" things do save on electricity. (And in more ways than just more energy efficient appliances. For instance, green home design emphasizes natural light, so you use all light bulbs less, twisty or no!) In some ways you save money, in others you don't. Changing an energy system does create jobs- at least for a while. But I don't think you can have a discussion about the benefits of going green and completely ignore the long term implications of over-consumption.
I would love to see our government regulate how much heat and air conditioning you can use during certain months of the year like Italy does and see if the people won't complain and protest. Imagine driving to work and the minute you enter the building there is no AC in the peak of summer months. Or you go home and your thermostat doesn't work because the government is controlling the consumption. I am a European first generation American and I have lived in both Europe and the US for many years. I honestly think most Americans don't have a clue about what socialism is and what a fine line we are walking.
There are so many things people can do to go green but the more green we get, the less products and conveniences will be available. For instance, in Europe they have bidets which if you don't know wash your rear before you wipe with toilet paper. The whole idea is so that you use less toilet paper and don't have to use those baby wipes in those messy situations. You bring in bidets and now toilet paper doubles in price because less people are buying it. Same thing can be said for paper plates, napkins, paper cups etc. Dishwashers?? this is a luxury in Europe. Not only are they very expensive but they waste so much water. I can't imagine American women washing dishes in the sink every night without complaining.
If you really want to go green then people should do the following:
Wash your dishes in the sink
Plant your own vegetable/herb gardens
Dry your clothes outside on a clothes line
Ride your bike to work and if you can't move closer to your job
Replace as many paper products with non-paper products
Most people will never succumb to changing their lifestyle to become more "green" when it is so much easier to just buy a "green" appliance which in reality does very little to impact the environment since in many cases it consumes more energy to create a green product than it saves. The people that advocate the "green" movement kind of remind me of all those people that donate to charity but don't actually volunteer their time for a charity which is what really creates the largest impact.
By the way, before I get flamed I want to say that I do all of the things that I listed above and I am NOT an advocate of the green movement. I do them because the bottom line is that it saves me a lot of money and I take pride and joy in eating healthier and consuming less.
Last edited by jja100; 08-14-2009 at 11:01 PM..
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