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For WWII (including the Holocaust and Chinese Revolution) Christians got credit for 27,500,000 deaths, Muslims for an even million, and "other" (primarily Asian Religions) got credit for 26,500,000.
The determining factor is not "was Hitler Christian" (even though his antisemitism is absolutely and directly derived from his Christian roots) but whether Germany was a Christian nation.
I change the rule only when the slaughters are internally directed. For example, while Russia was a Christian nation, the Stalinist purges get credited to atheistic communism. So too with Mao's "Great Leap Forward" and "Cultural Revolution."
I love how you get to make the rules.
Hitler became anti-semetic when he was living in a whorehouse in Austria. It had absolutely nothing to do with religion. He hated communism and blamed the jews for subverting German politics, and he felt the jews were steering Germany towards communism. As well as being somewhat genetically inferior. Hitler hated Christianity and attempted to abolish Christianity in all of Germany. And the holocaust was most assuredly "internally directed".
Stalin and the communists conquered countries, took over their politics, then shipped its political dissidents to Siberia, where they would die in forced labor camps. Or they would simply starve the populations who opposed him. I find it silly that you would consider the slaughters in "Christian Russia" to be atheistic, but at the same time you consider Germany and Hitler to be Christians?
Stalin was born a Christian, he went to seminary, and his mother wanted him to become a priest. Lenin was the one who tried to destroy the church. Stalin did very little to the church, and even reinstated the church during WWII, to help boost the morale of the people.
I find it silly the methodology you have employed to categorize fault for human tragedies to be a little lacking. Are the deaths currently being caused in Iraq and Afghanistan only the fault of Christians? Are there no jews or muslims in this country or involved in the war?
What of the Ottoman empire, which at some points was about 50% Christian? Would its involvement in WWI be considered muslim or christian?
To me what really matters is the character of the war, and the character of the main people involved in the war.
The war on terrorism can be entirely blamed on religion. The Israel/Palestinian conflict is almost purely religious. The Sunni/Shiite struggles in the middle-east is religious. Pakistan/India issues. Things along that nature.
If you start saying that any death at the hands of a Christian is the fault of Christianity, then every murder in every country would have to be counted towards their religious total also. And what would end up happening, is whichever religion has the most adherents would necessarily have to be the largest cause of death in the world.
What we should be looking at are wars fought in the name of religion, in the name of god. Basically, if Germany was nothing but atheists, would WWII have happened? The simple answer is Yes.
If America was nothing but a bunch of atheists, would the revolutionary war have happened? Yes. What about the Indian wars? Yes. What about the Mexican-American war? Yup. What about the Civil War? Definitely. What about Vietnam? Yes.
So to say that Christianity is somehow to blame for conflicts involving Christians, is just silly. What matters is the wars and conquests that simply would not have existed without religion. Only then you will find out who is actually to blame.
Most empires are not created for religious purposes. Most empires are created for economic purposes. The muslim Caliphates were created only on the basis of spreading Islam. And during its creation, it saw the deaths of tens of millions.
Except that they actually were using chemical bombs and Gatling guns.
Nearly 20 million people were murdered in prison camps and about 10 million starved to death. Neither one of those require chemical weapons or Gatling guns. You've officially made that up... Unless of course you have proof...
For WWII (including the Holocaust and Chinese Revolution) Christians got credit for 27,500,000 deaths, Muslims for an even million, and "other" (primarily Asian Religions) got credit for 26,500,000.
I'd like for you to announce your requirements that you find give the "credit" for 27,500,000 deaths by Christians.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude
The determining factor is not "was Hitler Christian" (even though his antisemitism is absolutely and directly derived from his Christian roots) but whether Germany was a Christian nation.
Or the fact that he had a family history the tended to lead to mental illness or retardation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HistorianDude
About 178,864,800 people were killed during the 20th Century in conflicts that killed more than 1000 people (the cut-off for my analysis). Communism (by my count) gets credit for 80,232,000 of them.
I'd be curious where your information comes from...
You can't take count of who killed who based solely on the religion people were born into. The question is whether or not the murders were committed in the name of a religion and more importantly in keeping with it. Since Christianity doesn't endorse murder, it is not fair to say people have murdered in keeping with the faith. To be sure some have murdered in the name of Christianity but most of these murders had much less of a religious component that commonly believed.
The big murderers of the 20th century were mainly Atheist. Hitler and the Nazis endorsed Nietzsche who said "God is dead." Hitler hated religion as he wrote in mien kampf. Stalin's Russia was distinctly Atheist and his murders had no religious component. Pol Pot was also Atheist as were nearly all authoritarian regimes. In fact, worship of the dictator is the religion of most totalitarian regimes. The same is true of Mao who also killed millions of Chinese.
It is dishonest to suggest that every time a man who was born Christian murders, it was Christianity that was responsible for the murder.
Islam is a different story. Islam is the one situation in which murder on a large scale is committed in the name of and possibly in keeping with one's faith.
It's easily Christianity. Whether you are talking about the Crusades or the Nazis during WWII, more people have killed in the name of Christianity than any other faith. I'm not judging Christianity but just pointing out a fact. Christianity has also contributed the most charity to the world as well. Without Christian principles, the Western World would not be the success it is today. It goes both ways
The Nazis and the Third Reich did not represent Christian principles, and to say that more people were killed in the name of Christianity is not a fair statment. Nobody has really kept statistics on the true numbers.
It's easily Christianity. Whether you are talking about the Crusades or the Nazis during WWII, more people have killed in the name of Christianity than any other faith. I'm not judging Christianity but just pointing out a fact. Christianity has also contributed the most charity to the world as well. Without Christian principles, the Western World would not be the success it is today. It goes both ways
The over 100 million killed by the communists (atheists) in Russia dwarfs the number killed by the Crusades, or even the Nazis. There were only about 300 million people on the entire planet at that time, some studies show less than 20,000 killed during the Crusades.
The religion of Liberalism. And it is a religion. A cult one at that.
You're probably just using a definition of liberalism as given to you by Glen Beck and Fox News, and not the correct historic definition of liberalism as used in political science. Liberalism came out of the Age of Enlightenment--the American Revolution was an example of liberalism. Totalitarian communist governments have very little to do with classical liberalism, much of which is based around the idea of free markets to some extent.
Ah f--k, who cares, I forgot this was the P&C forum and not the place for intelligent discourse...
You're probably just using a definition of liberalism as given to you by Glen Beck and Fox News, and not the correct historic definition of liberalism as used in political science. Liberalism came out of the Age of Enlightenment--the American Revolution was an example of liberalism. Totalitarian communist governments have very little to do with classical liberalism, much of which is based around the idea of free markets to some extent.
Ah f--k, who cares, I forgot this was the P&C forum and not the place for intelligent discourse...
That's why it's called Classic... Today's liberals dropped that from their title right after World War II at the same time this new and great idea of a Utopian society was espoused by Communist/Socialist. I'd probably consider myself a classic liberal if today's liberals hadn't hijacked that title.
That's why it's called Classic... Today's liberals dropped that from their title right after World War II at the same time this new and great idea of a Utopian society was espoused by Communist/Socialist. I'd probably consider myself a classic liberal if today's liberals hadn't hijacked that title.
We're talking about history and we're talking about the entire world on this thread, not some New Left definition of liberalism that only arose in the 1960s in the USA. Truman, Eisenhower, and Kennedy all considered themselves liberals---and they stood strong against the Soviets and Communism at the start of the Cold War.
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