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The same questions were asked before we pulled out of Vietnam. The same predictions were made, including the predictions that the conflict would spread all over SE Asia (the so-called Domino Theory).
It didn't happen then, and it won't happen now. There are cruise ships stopping in Vietnam now, and in 30 or so years, Baghdad will once again be a tourist attraction.
There were no terrorists in Iraq before we invaded. It was widely predicted that if we did invade, it would attract the terrorists -- the term "recruiting grounds" for terrorists was predicted -- and that is exactly what happened. The only reason the Islamic fundamentalists think they have an opportunity in Iraq is because we knocked out Saddam, who knew how to keep them out.
It's true that some of them want to make Iraq into a fundamentalist religious state, like Iran and Syria. If we leave (the British are already almost completely gone), they will likely succeed. Many of the people are ready for it. The only open question is whether the government will be Sunni or Shiite, and given that the Shias are in the majority and that Iran is Shiite, I would expect the Sunnis to be the big losers. The only reason that the Sunnis ever held their own was because Saddam was Sunni and was strong enough to rule over the majority Shias. So, if there is a bloodbath, it will likely be ethnic cleansing of Sunnis, which is nothing new for the region or the people.
There are always the Kurds, but I suspect that if the Shiites take control of Iraq and eliminate the Sunnis, they may leave the Kurds alone -- they need the industriousness and stability of the Kurds. Even though Saddam gassed a lot of the Kurds when they tried to revolt, most of the hard workers in Baghdad were Kurds.
So, the bottom line is that we tried to create a democracy and what we have succeeded in doing is adding another Islamic fundamentalist nation to the list. This was also predicted before we invaded, along with the need for many thousands of more troops and the enormous cost -- although even those making the high cost predictions never imagined how stupendously high it would actually become, or how long it would be to realize it failed.
I am NOT a Monday morning quarterback; I was one of those who railed against the stupidity of invading and urged everyone to consider the consequences. They did not, and we now have the largest failure in the history of the United States.
Finally, the actual plan that is being promoted by the Democrats is not to pull out of the region entirely, just to redeploy out of Iraq and into nearby areas where we can still keep a close eye on things and control any spill-overs. As long as the conflict stays in Iraq, my attitude is to do the same thing the fire department does when a fire gets out of control -- pull back to the edges, make sure it doesn't spread, and let it burn itself out.
That's not a wonderful plan, but it's the best that can be made out of an incredibly stupid position that we find ourselves in, due to the arrogance and incompetence of the worst administration in the history of our nation.
Not to sound too harsh, but wouldn't a blood bath be what we want? Let the Islamic sects focus on and kill each other instead of the West? Less muslim fanatics = less terrorists?
Last edited by NSHL10; 05-10-2007 at 06:32 PM..
Reason: grammar
Not to sound too harsh, but wouldn't a blood bath be what we want? Let the Islamic sects focus on and kill each other instead of the West? Less muslim fanatics = less terrorists?
Pol Pot was a Cambodian dictator who killed hundreds of thousands of Khmer Rouge. It was indeed a bloodbath. It also have nothing to do with the pullout of America from Vietnam. In fact, after spending a couple of years winning the war against the South Vietnamese, the North Vietnamese invaded Cambodia and chased Pol Pot into the woods, ending his rein of terror.
In Vietnam, thousands of South Vietnamese were sent to reeducation camps, and many did die. Many thousands more left Vietnam because they feared for their safety. Many iof them settled in the US. There were purges of South Vietnamese leaders. While all of this is unfortunate, it is also common practice after most wars when the victors purge the losers. I suspect something similar would have happened to the North Vietnamese if the South had won.
Again, the pullout of the USA had nothing to do with that. Unless you expect that we would have stayed in that country for decades, it was bound to happen as soon as we left, whenever that was, and whether or not we were victorious. To think otherwise is to ignore history and reality.
As I said before, I expect the Sunnis will probably suffer if we pull out. That's a shame, but not much worse than the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who have died while we have been in the country.
It's certainly no reason to continue to waste the lives of our own brave troops, not the Billions upon Billions of dollars that could make a real difference if spent wisely on our own citizens and infrastructure instead of throwing good money after bad in Iraq.
Spending that money in Iraq reminds me of the millions of dollars we spend pumping sand onto beaches, only to see it erode again in two or three days during a storm. If we stop pumping, a condo mightr fall into the ocean. Oops -- better to lose it now than to continue wasting our resources
We must always remember, however, that the blood of every dead Iraqi, whether in the last four years or the next, is on the hands of this President and his administration, not the hands of those who would pull our troops out to same their lives.
And when asked about that, Jane Fonda said that was the fault of the US. Not internet BS either, I saw the interview.
Well, let's look at the logic. To take away the emotional responses, let's change the names.
Let's say the hedgehogs are having a war with the groundhogs. It is the same as dozens of internal wars all over the planet and all through history. It looks like the groundhogs are going to lose. If the groundhogs give up now, they will simply become members of the larger hog population.
The grizzly bears usually ignore these battles, but the hogs happen to live on a salmon river, and the grizzly bears want the salmon. The hedgehogs don't like the grizzlies and will deny them the salmon. The groundhogs don't really like the bears, either, but they are willing to barter the salmon in order to beat the hedgehogs. So, the grizzly bears step in to help the groundhogs.
The problem is that the leaders of the bears are pretty incompetent, and don't allow the battling bears to use their full power. After all, grizzlies are pretty powerful and could wipe out the hedgehogs with a swipe of their paws. But, most of the hedgehogs are innocent bystanders and the bears would be censured by the entire animal kingdom if they wiped out the hedgehogs.
The battles go on for many years. Many hedgehogs, groundhogs and bears are killed. It becomes obvious that the only reason the groundhogs are holding on is because the bears are giving them just enough help to keep them going.
Finally, however, the bears at home convince their leaders that the fight between the hogs is not a bear fight. They have other places to get salmon. Too many bears have been killed for nothing. So, the bears get called home.
Finally, nature is allowed to take its course and within a short time, the hedgehogs take over both banks of the salmon river. The groundhogs still don't want to give up their side of the river, so the hedgehogs have to hand out a little punishment until the groundhogs give up. Many of the groundhogs leave the river area, and some are killed. Next door, a crazy porcupine goes off his rocker and kills most of the bunny rabbits in his area, but that has nothing to do with the hogs. By the way, the bunny rabbits don't have any salmon, so the bears don't care what happens to them.
Now, who is responsible for the suffering of the groundhogs after the battle is over? Was it the hedgehogs? Not really. Many years before, they offered the groundhogs a way to be part of the greater hog nation. It's not their fault that the groundhogs resisted. Was the it groundhogs? Well, yes, to a large extent. If they had accepted the hedgehogs' offer they would have been exactly where they ended up, minus the suffering.
And, without the bears, the groundhogs would have had to accept their position. Remember, the end result would not have changed -- either way the groundhogs lose to the hedgehogs. The only difference is that more groundhogs would be alive today (not to mention the dead hedgehogs and dead bears) if the bears had not interfered. The sad thing is, the bears really didn't care which side won; they would have backed the hedgehogs if the hedgehogs had been willing to let them have salmon.
The bears, as powerful as they are, should have used the wisdom that should go along with power. They had leaders who had that wisdom, but some bears are dumber than others, and the dumb ones voted in dumb leaders.
Some of the smart bears pointed out the mistakes of the dumb bears, and the dumb bears didn't like it. So, they made up stories about the smart bears. Since there are more dumb bears than smart bears, the other dumb bears believed the stories. Years and years later, some of the leaders of the dumb bears actually admitted that their support of the groundhogs was a bad mistake (well duh, that is exactly what the smart bears had been saying all along).
It didn't do any good -- the dumb bears got into power again, elected even dumber leaders who couldn't learn from the admitted mistakes, and got the bears into the same situation again. These new dumb bears are so dumb, they drag out the hog war as justification for what they are doing now, even though their own leaders admitted the hog wars were a bad mistake. Go figure.
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