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Old 11-04-2009, 05:43 PM
 
2,661 posts, read 2,904,439 times
Reputation: 366

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Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
Well, there are degrees of subtlety that start to come into play once you move beyond classic Elvis spray-painted on velvet. It can take a little longer to come to an appreciation of just what it is you are buying.
Your patience is absolutely incredible.
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Old 11-04-2009, 05:54 PM
 
4,104 posts, read 5,311,261 times
Reputation: 1256
Anyone who thinks that the velocity of money is slower for the rich has not met my wife.
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Old 11-04-2009, 06:35 PM
 
4,127 posts, read 5,068,656 times
Reputation: 1621
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
The economy is dynamic. You aren't going to see everything unless you look at both forests and trees. Think of the 2008 Bush Stimulus Plan. A lot of people got a check for a few hundred dollars. Nobody got a new job in the mail. But even with a lot of people using those checks to add to savings or pay down debt, the demand that arose from the part of that $150 billion or so that was spent did save or create a lot of jobs. And the much larger Obama Stimulus that came along a year later has done even more, in part because it was deliberately targeted to those who would spend the money the quickest. Whether you see it or not, the stimulus cash has been out there doing the job.

The same is true with project support. If I give you $50,000 to support your day care center and you use it to hire one new person, that's a net gain. But it is as well if you give ten people a $5,000 raise. You don't get the up-front new hire, but the demand resulting from the money being spent does result in jobs being saved or created either way you do it.

I don't know whether the lady in question got the math right, but to suggest that the pay raises given to her 508 employees did not save or create any jobs is simply not to understand how the economy works.
This is pretty much where I'll stop reading this thread because I can see already what's coming. Instead of going through and pointing out your many factual and logical errors, I'll keep it short and just say you're wrong.
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Old 11-04-2009, 07:17 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,509,263 times
Reputation: 27720
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
The economy is dynamic. You aren't going to see everything unless you look at both forests and trees. Think of the 2008 Bush Stimulus Plan. A lot of people got a check for a few hundred dollars. Nobody got a new job in the mail. But even with a lot of people using those checks to add to savings or pay down debt, the demand that arose from the part of that $150 billion or so that was spent did save or create a lot of jobs. And the much larger Obama Stimulus that came along a year later has done even more, in part because it was deliberately targeted to those who would spend the money the quickest. Whether you see it or not, the stimulus cash has been out there doing the job.

The same is true with project support. If I give you $50,000 to support your day care center and you use it to hire one new person, that's a net gain. But it is as well if you give ten people a $5,000 raise. You don't get the up-front new hire, but the demand resulting from the money being spent does result in jobs being saved or created either way you do it.

I don't know whether the lady in question got the math right, but to suggest that the pay raises given to her 508 employees did not save or create any jobs is simply not to understand how the economy works.
You certainly have a way with words to justify about anything that comes out of the WH these days. Even the WH has been admitting they were over-optimistic in several of their projections.
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Old 11-04-2009, 07:23 PM
 
69,368 posts, read 64,128,317 times
Reputation: 9383
Quote:
Originally Posted by compJockey View Post
Your patience is absolutely incredible.
Regardless of her patience, she's still wrong, and so was Obama, and the economy has proved it along with the LACK OF JOBS...
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Old 11-04-2009, 07:40 PM
 
69,368 posts, read 64,128,317 times
Reputation: 9383
I skipped all of the part of your reply that indeed was not a reply based upon reality. This is all that was left..
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
Spending is good in a depression-like environment. So good that you want individual dollars to be spent over and over again as quickly as possible. This is because each exchange creates more demand, and that demand puts downward pressure on umemployment and upward pressure on capacity utilization. Upscale people are apt to spend rather less quickly than those at the middle or lower income levels. Hence, to get the greatest stimulative effect, you want to focus AWAY from things such as tax cuts for the rich.
This "philosophy" actually disagrees with your previous response.

If you do want people to spend AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.. You dont spread out $13 payments over time. You dont increase their stamps which come once a month over a year. You CUT PEOPLE A CHECK.. Thanks for CONFIRMING the Bush strategy..
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
You can't buy food stamps. To the extent that you are eligible for benefits, the monthly allotment simply shows up on your benefits card. And recipients do very quickly spend those allotments on food that they would not otherwise have been able to purchase.
I know, but if the return on food stamps = 3 to 4 times what one spent (despite the fact that not even your link claimed it was anywhere near this), they would indeed open up "stamps" to be bought and then used. Why dont they? I know why, because its not the fact that "stamps" stimulate, its taking money from one class of individual and giving it to another who is by your own admission, not responsible with money. So we stimulate the economy by paying people to waste money. It gets better, since we pay them over time, with methods that dont really create jobs, it just moves the spending, while the administration pretends jobs are created, everything magically gets better right? I guess in Peter Pan land..
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
Do you have any explanation for the history of borrowing and lending over these many, many centuries that it's actually been going on? By the terms you just laid out, debt is a horrible deal that no rational person would ever engage in.
Not all debt is bad, nor is all debt good. You sound smart enough to understand the difference which makes me wondering why you pretend its all the same.

Lets not even discuss the fact that you want to now try to explain LYING about job creation numbers (and yes, thats what it is) is justified by debt..
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Old 11-04-2009, 07:47 PM
 
2,661 posts, read 2,904,439 times
Reputation: 366
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
Regardless of her patience, she's still wrong, and so was Obama, and the economy has proved it along with the LACK OF JOBS...
You're cute.
But its like watching a 6-year-old arguing with their grandparents.

Your posts show how exactly how much you know.
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Old 11-10-2009, 10:19 AM
 
Location: Long Island
32,816 posts, read 19,492,759 times
Reputation: 9618
so getting a stimulas to buy a 1000 dollars lawn mower = 50 saved jobs.......more fuzzy math from washington


November 5, 2009
Reports Show Conflicting Number of Jobs Attributed to Stimulus Money
By MICHAEL COOPER and RON NIXON

In June, the federal government spent $1,047 in stimulus money to buy a rider mower from the Toro Company to cut the grass at the Fayetteville National Cemetery in Arkansas. Now, a report on the government’s stimulus Web site improbably claims that that single lawn mower sale helped save or create 50 jobs.
Earlier that same month, when Chrysler got a $52.9 million stimulus order for new cars for the government, the struggling automaker claimed that the money did not save a single job.

Those two extremes illustrate the difficulties in trying to figure out just how many jobs can be attributed to the $787 billion stimulus program. Last week the Obama administration released reports from more than 130,000 recipients of stimulus money in which they claimed to have saved or created more than 640,000 jobs, but a review of those reports shows that some are simply wrong, while others contain apparently subjective estimates.

A spokesman for Toro said the 50-job figure was not accurate, making it one of a number of reports with apparent errors. In many other cases, though, claims of jobs created are simply judgment calls, often by recipients trying to follow complex federal guidelines.

More than half of all the jobs claimed — 325,000 — were those of educators that states said they were able to keep on the job thanks to stimulus aid. But some school districts said that they might not have actually laid off teachers without the stimulus money. Many Head Start programs reported saving the jobs of employees who in fact had simply been given raises with stimulus money — putting their claims of 8,000 jobs under review. Many states and private companies seem to have used different criteria when estimating whether stimulus aid had saved jobs or not, and when calculating full-time positions.

The reports, for all their shortcomings, do provide the first check of how the stimulus bill is working so far. They suggest that more than half the jobs claimed so far are in the public sector — despite the fact that President Obama has said that he expects only 10 percent of stimulus jobs to be in the public sector.

A computer analysis by The New York Times of government reports showed that at least 30,000 of the jobs were being claimed in highway, street and bridge construction, and at least 14,000 were with transit agencies. The analysis found that the $5 billion push to weatherize homes, which was delayed in many states because of uncertainty over how much money the workers should be paid, had yielded only a little over 5,000 jobs so far, nearly half of which were in Ohio.

The reports, which have been posted on the government’s Web site, Recovery.gov, provide unusual transparency for government spending, showing how much money each contractor has received and where the work has been done, right down to the ZIP code. But they seem to raise as many questions as they answer.

The reports make no distinction between a newly created job and a saved job. They do not specify whether a job is in the public or private sector. And descriptions of the work vary in detail, making it difficult to categorize some work and to compare how various programs are doing.

Elizabeth A. Oxhorn, a White House spokeswoman on the stimulus, said that some of the data, which officials had always warned would contain errors, was rough because it was posted online quickly after it was received, in an effort at transparency. The jobs numbers would likely be adjusted both upward and downward, she said.

“As with all economic indicators — even statistics that have been around for decades — the brand-new measures posted last week are subject to subsequent revision, as further analysis clarifies and improves the data,” she said.

Although President Obama initially said that 90 percent of the jobs created by the stimulus program would be in the private sector, the data suggests that well over half of the jobs claimed so far have been in the public sector. They include the 325,000 jobs in education, including teachers, administrators and support staff, as well as many of the 73,000 other jobs paid for with education grants, many of which were in public safety.

Republicans, who overwhelmingly opposed the stimulus program, said the figures showed that the program was failing in its stated mission of creating a large number of private sector jobs. Administration officials said that they believed the stimulus program was still on track to save or create 3.5 million jobs by the end of next year, and that in the end 90 percent of the jobs would be in the private sector.

The job data can be loose. Philip Mattera, the research director for Good Jobs First, a labor-oriented research organization in Washington, examined the reports and found 2,464 projects that claimed no jobs at all, even though more than half of the work had been done, at a cost of more than $1 billion. That suggests that many projects have undercounted job creation.

But the dogs that do not bark are not receiving as much attention as those that do. Onvia, a Seattle company that tracks government spending at the federal, state and local levels, noted that the data is only as good as the recipients that have reported it, and pointed out a number of questionable reports.

In one, a Kentucky shoe store reported that it had created nine jobs with an $890 order for work boots. In another, a $7,960 contract for a “Basketball System Replacement” in Ohio claimed three jobs.

It was not clear what positions they played.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/05/us...ulus.html?_r=2
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